European Cup Trivia

[Alex Anderson]

Was it lamb rogan josh? That is my Indian meal of choice.

It was everything, Satchmo - it was absolutely everything on the menu. "Indian Tapas" setup - insulting to both traditions. But, by god, we tanked the arse oot it.

Rather, the fat bastard who'd set the trivia question tanked the arse oot it while his pals wasted valuable eating time scratching their heads, and guessing, and demanding to know how both Lazio and Roma were on the list but not both TSV 1860 and Bayern ...

[Alex Anderson]

More trivia potential - how many Northern Ireland and Celtic full-backs' surnames are part of the names of curry dishes?

Or Northern Ireland and Kilmarnock strikers' Christian names ...

[Alex Anderson]

What year did Valencia face Barcelona in the final?

[Sam]

That's never happened, surely. Valencia have been in one final and lost it to Madrid, no?

[Sam]

Oh! Ha. Or alternatively, 2009, when Antonio Valencia featured for Manchester United.

[Sam]

No, wait ... he didn't play in 2009. 2011, then.

[Sam]

Can't even get the intuitive club correction right. On looking up to check my answer I see that the club Valencia reached back-to-back finals, runners-up in both. I'd totally forgotten about 2001.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Can't even get the intuitive club correction right. On looking up to check my answer I see that the club Valencia reached back-to-back finals, runners-up in both. I'd totally forgotten about 2001.

The great days of Hector Cuper. I met him in 2012 when he was manager of Orduspor and he seemed like a lovely man.

[Alex Anderson]

No, wait ... he didn't play in 2009. 2011, then.

Spot on, Sam. Sorry. All those decades slavering over the biggest competition in club football and that's the only trick question I could muster. And it's shit.

You want a trick question to elicit an "oh, you devious swine you!" or "Wow! Mind-bender! That was like the big reveal in The Matrix!" response.

Mine just gets a kind of "Oh fuck off and grow up."

Bit like my company.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

You could combine it with "When did Sunderland play in a European final?

[Alex Anderson]

The great days of Hector Cuper. I met him in 2012 when he was manager of Orduspor and he seemed like a lovely man.

Glad to hear he was nice, Antepli. I loved his teams.

Of all the great European sides we've seen at Ibrox down the Champions League years (Barca, Bayern, Inter, Man U), most Rangers fans I speak to instinctively cite Cuper's Valencia as the slickest they've ever seen.

They beat us 2-1 in Glasgow en route to the first of their two straight finals. But there was far more than one goal in it. That was a bloody good Rangers side too. Valencia were just so street-smart, organised and utterly gorgeous on the ball that night that they've stuck in the mind of every one of us lucky enough to be there.



As I never tire of mentioning, I was at the last ever Cup-Winners' Cup final when his Real Mallorca side lost narrowly to Sven's Lazio. I think Cuper is one of those guys whose legend has actually been increased by the fact he failed at the last hurdle on three straight European occasions. He always cut a slightly harrowed figure in the technical area - as if he was too hard to be happy; like he couldn't do laps of honour - just harsh experience.

It's a childish and wholly inaccurate perception of his sides but, when viewed in the pantheon of great European trophy-winning teams, Cuper's were the kind that taught you a lesson in life along the way rather than being the ultimate in glamorous idols. Savvy. Care-worn. Elegantly decaying even as they were assembled.



His teams played like they'd lived a long life together and the street smarts almost became a weariness by the time they hit a final ... like they'd "seen too much" and it had drained their faith. That San Siro final v Bayern ... the missed penalties ... the converted penalties ... to lose your third European final in three years that way ...

I'm surprised Hector could set foot in the San Siro again after that but his Inter side had all his hallmarks. The night they played at St James' probably left a few Newcastle fans feeling the same as the Rangers support after Cuper's Valencia had visited.

That night in Newcastle, Inter were sumptuous. Classic Cuper side - pace, power, energy and a directness only possible with world class levels of delicate skill. I adore this performance - these goals - and the fact that the architect of it all is a gaunt Argentinian smoking a fag and demanding perfection for its own sake.

[Alex Anderson]

You could combine it with "When did Sunderland play in a European final?

or when did Holland score in a European club final ...

As long as we don't get down to completing the Sunderland, [...], Villa Wembley sequence ...

[ad hoc]

You could do something about the second time Villa played in (and won) the European Cup final

[Alex Anderson]

... and a written forum is the only place to do that, ad hoc. Even the Ricky Villa, Alan Sunderland FA Cup final question always had to be written down - pronouncing the "Villa" wrong was immoral. Unforgiveable. The kind of thing a Hector Cuper pub trivia team would never do.

[Alex Anderson]

There's also something, surely, to be gleaned from Aurelio Milani scoring for Inter in the 64 European Cup final win and Fernando De Napoli scoring against Napoli in their 89 UEFA Cup final win ... but I just don't have the street-smarts to put it together.

[Pérou Flaquettes]

Intriguing . . .

To (sort of) get the thread back on topic:

I believe that Jean-Francois Larios was the only man to star for AS Saint-Étienne (though he didn't play in the 1976 European Cup Final), feature in Sporting Club Bastia's UEFA Cup Final, and play in the NASL (for le Manic de Montréal, where I actually saw one of the six matches he played for them). For whatever reason, there were very few French players in the original NASL.

And Eusebio is, I believe, the only man to score in both a European Cup Final and a Soccer Bowl.

Saw him play at Saint-Étienne, I would regularly visit the cité forézienne with my family as we had close relatives there (one of whom, an uncle, was a police officer often sent on duty to Geoffroy Guichard).

Ah, Jean François Larios, my sister’s fictional boyf’ at the time… Quite the ladies’ man our "Jeff". So much so that it cost him his career in the French national team and at Sainté. Well, he did ask for it: he was shagging Platini’s wife.

First became persona non grata in a crisis-hit Saint-Étienne at the fag end of 1981 and for most of 1982, crucially (for him) a World cup year. Very quickly too, Larios was to become the pariah of French football (hence his rocking up in North America). He liked the high life and soon hit financial problems, as did Sainté for that matter: the infamous "caisse noire" scandal – slush fund – in 1982-83 for which totemic chairman Roger Rocher would later be sentenced to jail. Cue fire sale of players, the departure of "The Sphinx" in 1983 – legendary manager Robert Herbin – etc. a disastrous patch inexorably capped off by relegation to Division 2 in 1984.

A string of injuries (mid 1983) did the rest for Larios and effectively curtailed his highly promising career at only 26-27 just as he was reaching his peak; he’d been voted France’s Best Player by France Football in 1980, had scored 17 goals season 1981-82 (was Tottenham-bound summer 1982 but Herbin refused to release him) etc. After Herbin’s departure in January 1983, Larios left Sainté the following month as he fell out with the new manager.



That’s basically why he ended up briefly plying his trade in 1983 for the short-lived Manic de Montréal in a now-moribund NASL before his career petered out in the bowels of the French League in the mid 1980's, 1st and 2nd division (and a brief spell in Switzerland), before he called it a day at 31.

A great shame certainly, as Larios should now be feted as a French Great in the same breath as the fabled French midfielders of the time (the "Carré Magique", i.e Platini, Giresse, Tigana, Fernandez). But instead of being a "ledge", he is mostly remembered as a failed artist who transmogrified mid-career into a pedestrian journeyman.

A measly 17 French caps – same as Ginola, to whom he is sometimes likened – is a pathetic return for such a talented playmaker as Larios had all the skills – the class, the vision etc. (as highlighted in the excerpt below) – to thrive at the highest level for a decade, as well as the physical attributes which the article below only alludes to but he certainly was a powerful, strapping player (6’2, 13 ½ stone) and he stood out in the supremely talented but lightweight French midfield of the early 1980’s (the Carré magique players + the wiry Genghini. Players were of course less powerful and athletic then than now, big thighs but limited upper body strength, they certainly didn’t spend much time on weight lifting and ab workouts).

How his athleticism would have been helpful against the Germans in that fateful Sevilla evening of June 1982… (he played the first game vs England but was then left out of the squad, on Platini’s insistence it was rumoured. Larios even left the team hotel altogether but remained in Spain, mainly to find himself a club; he was eventually signed by Atlético Madrid but a nasty knee injury put paid to a Spanish career, an injury that would plague the rest of his career. Was in the stands at Sánchez Pizjuán for the game vs West Germany... boy, how they could have done with him to beef up that French side…).



Good piece on Larios here: Jean François Larios – the man France forgot.


[…] stylish footballer, indomitable presence and effortlessly cool in possession of the ball. An excellent penalty taker, he was the free moving but often deep-lying springboard of the late 1970s and early-80s AS Saint-Étienne midfield who allowed team-mates Johnny Rep and Michel Platini to maraud forward in search of goals at will.
A man blessed with the same brand of long flowing hair and striking good looks that David Ginola would later take as his own style. Larios was the man that might have been the difference between France reaching the 1982 World Cup final and ultimately not doing so.

[…]

While Saint-Étienne managed to hold things together on the pitch effectively enough it was a different matter behind the scenes’ an unbridgeable rift appeared between Larios and his once close friend Platini, with rumours of an affair between Larios and Platini’s wife Chantelle* bubbling to the surface and refusing to go away. The feud escalated and cast a shadow over not just the club’s attempts at the 1982 domestic double, but also the looming World Cup finals in Spain where both players were expected to play pivotal roles for the French national team.
Tensions within a squad of players that predominantly sided with Platini meant that wouldn’t be the case for Larios, however. Both players took to the field in Bilbao for France’s opening game of the tournament against England. France lost 3-1 that day in a game that was a closer encounter than the score-line suggests.

Legend has it that Platini handed the French coach Michel Hidalgo a ‘him or me’ ultimatum after the England game, while the other version of is that Larios sacrificed himself for the good of squad unity. Either way, Larios left the squad and headed to Barcelona for transfer negotiations. Larios would eventually return to the squad, but was involved only in the third place play-off defeat to Poland, a game that Platini perhaps tellingly didn’t appear in, a game that also proved to be the last time Larios would play for his national side.

The recriminations back in France after the finals saw Larios retire from international football with immediate effect, while Platini left Saint-Étienne for a lucrative move to Juventus and, at international level, on towards his date with destiny as the classic French hero at their glorious Euro ‘84 success. Larios, in comparison, saw his own big money move to one of the La Liga giants fall through, with Les Verts unwilling to lose both Larios and Platini simultaneously.

Larios eventually got his move to Spain in 1983 with Madrid rather than Barcelona being the city he headed to, although the destination Atlético instead of Real. Misfortune continued to follow Larios, however, as before he could take to the field for his debut he suffered a serious knee injury in training. It was an injury that would linger for the remainder of his career. A row between Larios and Atlético ensued as he went against club wishes that he be treated for the injury in Madrid, instead returning to France. He would never get to make his debut for Atlético as ill feeling between club and player escalated.

A deal was stuck with Neuchatel Xamax for the transfer of Larios in 1984, but with the player regaining his fitness and Atlético unwilling to field him, Larios headed to the NASL and Montreal Manic for a short spell before his move to Switzerland. It was the start of a nomadic existence that took in seven different clubs in just five years after leaving France, none of which he remained with for more than a season.

[*she was actually called Christèle]

[Alex Anderson]

Hell of a story, Kev, about a hell of a boy. I knew absolutely nothing about him - and it turns out there was so much to know. Still remember watching that semi-final in 82. I was just about to turn 13 but even then was hoping Germany won, to the point where my mum gave me a row because every time her and my visiting auntie came into the room, from nattering in the kitchen, France scored and I blamed it on them.

Turned out it was someone else who was watching that game who could have made a very real difference ...

[Alex Anderson]

Talking of Real - and difference - this isn't a quiz question to which I think I know the answer. It's a genuine enquiry with one eye on the return game for tonight's most glam fixture:

Have Real Madrid ever played at Wembley before?

[ursus arctos]

No.

Marca noted this when the draw was made.

[Alex Anderson]

Thanks Ursus.

That's bloody incredible.

Thought they might at least have played a friendly tournament there that'd slipped my mind.

It's not the final when they play Spurs at Wembley, obviously, but Cardiff last season had already slightly diluted Hampden's claim as Real's spiritual UK home. Scotland still has Elvis all to itself though ...

It will be something to see, then. Bit of history, mystery - glamour; All things my life has been seriously lacking since my last pint in the bar at Prestwick Airport.

[Alex Anderson]

Cristiano Ronaldo (x2)
Mario Mandzukic
Casimero
Marco Asensio

So was last season's final the one featuring most goal-scorers' names (first, second, only names) ending in "o"?

The 1958 final had seven, but does Cristiano Ronaldo's brace on the night mean there were, strictly speaking, eight in Cardiff, beating the seven - total - when Real beat Milan in Brussels?

Alfredo Di Stefano
Francisco Gento
Juan Schiaffino
Ernesto Grillo

I suppose if you list him as 'Francisco "Paco" Gento' ...

[Satchmo Distel]

Who is the greatest player to only ever get a runners up medal?

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

Alex, I bring news from afar. Today I happened across the Heinz Steyer Stadion in Dresden, and got close enough to take a photo that I'm not going to attempt to upload here. A Wikipedia search revealed this to be Dynamo Dresden's former home, and the one in which they made their Inter City Fairs Cup debut against yer men from Govan. Which, if I've wiki-checked accurately enough would also be the debut outing of t'Gers in the same competition. It's still in use, there might even have been a game just finished.

If you want me to search out any other still standing (and functional) stadia at which Rangers have played but the hosts have since moved out, let me know. I can throw the Olympiastadion in for nowt from past experience but the rest are on expenses.

[Alex Anderson]

We pay a fiver per mile for the first 50 miles, Walt - after that we have to put you on an Employee Benefit Trust ... all legit - don't worry - just a bit of a cash flow problem at the moment ...

Ah. Jealous Sir. In fact, as the teenagers of popular hit parade infamy would have it, I am Well Jel. [Who said "Motherwell"??!!]

I've blatantly Googled pics of the Heinz Steyer this morning and found myself wondering where the floodlights had gone. I must be confusing it with an old Leipzig or East Berlin stadium which, pre-wall-fall, has these huge, spectacularly low-craning, white-washed concrete pylons which caught the eye more than any game.

Also thoroughly ashamed to say my first thought about Dynamo Dresden is not a Rangers game but a coincidentally on-topic European Cup quarter-final v Red Star Belgrade. The Dresden leg was abandoned because of crowd trouble and awarded 3-0 to Red Star, in the season they eventually won it (havin cuffed the michty Teds in the previous round).

Nice to know there are still corners of Europe where Rangers feature in less humiliating firsts. Hope you enjoy the heck out of it Sir - furthest I've ever got into the former DDR was Union Berlin v Arminia Bielefeld.

But those were the Tony Blair years ... before I started contracting out my research ...

And thanks for calling those Govanites "men". Without gettin too Harvey Weinstein about it, there were few men to be seen in blue yesterday. Boys. Weans. Whingeing incompetents ... Dynamo would absolutely pump us right now ... in fact mid-table estwhile Luxembourg Euro flops HAVE pumped us ...

[Satchmo Distel]

Alex, I was hoping you'd like my pun on the other thread: Rangers Keep Falling On Their Heads.

Ought to be a terrace anthem.