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    Which club has scored the most goals in EC/CL knockout games at Manchester City? (you'll know this one)

    And when will Manchester City overtake them?

    The score is about 16-6 (*about* because I don't trust my mental arithmetic).

    Comment


      Presume this is Man United, due to using Maine Road and its floodlights for their early European ties.

      Comment


        Originally posted by denishurley View Post
        One which could go in the misconceptions thread - you're totally correct that game-theory dictates so much, the rules were what they were at the time and everybody acted accordingly.

        The tragedy for Hearts was that they lost out on goal difference in 1985-86, when a goal-average tie-break would have worked in their favour.
        That's it, Denis. I remember 1985-86, and the fallout, only too well (was at Ibrox, seeing Souness and Walter Smith unveiled to crowd, at exact same time Hearts were chucking it and Celtic winning it at Paisely - and I had to go through Paisley Gilmour Street train station on my way back home in those days. Won't forget that in a hurry).

        This time I know the Jambos just threw in the Goal Average discussion as part of the general self-flagellation. It was a dark irony with which to torture themselves further. They didn't even begin to pretend they'd ever thought Goal Average should have been the system in place. No outrage - just gutted at how painfully close they'd come to winning something.

        The reaction was nothing like, for example, the good half hour of genuine anger about football's lack of video umpiring - in a few London-run TV studios at least - which followed Frank Lampard's "equaliser" v Germany in Bloemfontein in 2010.

        And I just wonder, purely out of interest, if Away Goals was regarded/used in the same way back in the play-off days, just before I was born. Did it have the same contemporaneous traction as a concept - even just as an unjustified bar room gripe - among fans of Real Zaragoza and all the others who went out in a play-off but who we now know would have progressed on away goals.

        Rangers went through on a coin toss in the 1966-67 Cup Winners Cup quarter finals.

        Against Real Zaragoza.
        Last edited by Alex Anderson; 20-01-2018, 12:15. Reason: We know for a fact the Germans only saw dark irony in NOT conceding a clear goal to England, in red, in the World Cup

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          It took a while for teams to get used to the rule

          In 1969 Liverpool were knocked out of the Fairs Cup by Vitoria Setubal after forgetting all about the rule: having won the second leg 3-2 they waited around for extra-time, only to be informed by the referee that away goals applied in normal-time. “We were beaten by a penalty, an own goal and the rules of the competition,” manager Bill Shankly grumbled.

          Comment


            I don't know the answer to this but am throwing out there. Longest gaps between:

            Two goals scored by a player in the competition

            Two wins by a team in the competition

            Comment


              Amazing stuff, ursus - I remember it from Steve Hale and Ivan Ponting's Liverpool in Europe which you've caused me to pick up again. It says they had to make a tannoy announcement to let the crowd know there'd be no extra time.

              I see they went out on the toss of a coin to Athletic Bilbao in the previous season's competition too, after both had won their home legs 2-1. The second was at Anfield so that was two seasons on the trot the Koppites had to hang about for some agony after the final whistle. Wouldn't be long before they reaped the rewards though. And then some.

              The officials took a while to get used to it too:

              A couple of years later, in the converse of the Liverpool-Setubal scenario, Rangers lost 3-2 in Lisbon against Sporting after winning 3-2 in Glasgow. Went to extra time, both teams scored once each. Ref ordered penalties. Rangers lost the shoot-out without scoring a single spot kick. Sporting keeper is chaired round the pitch, Rangers players devastated in the dressing room ... just as the UEFA observer realises Rangers had already won the tie on away goals after extra time.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                I don't know the answer to this but am throwing out there. Longest gaps between:

                Two goals scored by a player in the competition

                Two wins by a team in the competition
                This is your horrible speciality, Satchmo. I'm still on the trail of someone who can beat your claim for Ian Callaghan as the player who went the longest between his debut in the competition and winning it.

                When I first glanced these questions I thought I knew both answers straight away. Inter went the longest between competition wins (1964 and 2010) and Gento must be the guy with the biggest gap between his first and last goals in the comp (December 1955 and December 1969) ...

                But that's not what you mean, is it. No it isn't. You horrible, horrible bastard. Rangers aren't even playing this weekend but it's ruined now anyway ...
                Last edited by Alex Anderson; 20-01-2018, 16:16. Reason: P.S. I hate you

                Comment


                  We did a tribute to Celtic on page 67 yet missed out Man U on page 68. So thanks to tee rex and Zeb for taking us poetically from 68 to 69 with talk of the Manchester clubs who both appeared in the 1968-69 European Cup.

                  [I take it too far, don't I. Oh lordy, what a character. You don't have to be mad to work here but poor social skills, insomnia and an alcohol dependency all resulting from childhood trauma certainly help. Don't they, mummy. Well DON'T THEY??!!]

                  So now we're thoroughly into page 69, and with a debt to pay to Sir Matt, have some of this:

                  George Best scored for Man United at Wembley as they beat Benfica 4-1 in the 1968 final - later that year he was crowned European Football of the Year.

                  Pierino Prati (patron saint of this thread) scored a hat-trick for Milan as they beat Ajax 4-1 in the 1969 final, but team-mate Gianni Rivera set up two of the goals at the Bernabeu that night (just as he did in the other Wembley final loss by Benfica, in 1963) - later that year he was crowned European Football of the Year.

                  QUESTION:

                  (1) Name the other TEN occasions on which the final score of the European Cup/Champions League final was the same as the previous year's. *

                  (2) Name the other NINE players and SIXTEEN times the Ballon d'Or has played in the winning team in the previous European Cup/Champions League final.





                  Above Celebrity guest George Best prepares the ceremonial first throw of the 1968 Pétanque World Championships
                  Below Paparazzi mob Gianni Rivera as he inspects door knob samples at B&Q, January 1970



                  *As per the example given, I'm not worried about whether the game went to extra time or not. Man U and Benfica drew 1-1 after 90 minutes but the final score was 4-1, same as it was after 90 minutes in the next year's final. Your joker is the 1974 final, which went to a replay. You can use either or both of the final scores for that one.

                  Also I am not using penalty shoot-out scores as some sort of sick, twisted, red-herring diversion thing (like what I've just done with the 1974 final replay). I'm talking only about the full-time score after 90 or 120 minutes (no ECCC/UCL final was settled by Golden or Silver Goal).


                  ALSO the final has never ended in penalties two years in a row. But, if you want a third question, (3) of the eleven penalty shoot-outs to take place in the final, can you tell me the six years in which the penalty shoot-out score was the same as a final score in a previous final settled in normal time.(e.g. if I was doing this question for the World Cup, Brazil won the 1994 final 3-2 on pens, same as Argentina won the 1986 final 3-2 after 90mins: Italy beating France 5-3 on pens in the 2010 final comes close to Brazil beating Sweden 5-2 over 90mins in the 1958 final - but not close enough)
                  Last edited by Alex Anderson; 22-01-2018, 10:08. Reason: It's not so much the posting of pictures or the extended, ranting explanations - it's when I start emboldening stuff ...

                  Comment


                    For the first question, I would combine it with the fact that there were nine consecutive finals in which neither team scored more than one goal. Perhaps not coincidentally, these were the years of English domination. 1-0 was the scoreline in 8 out of 10, 1975-1986.

                    For Question 2, the ones I know off the top of my head are Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Keegan, Platini, Van Basten

                    Comment


                      Afraid Keegan's wrong, ursus - Allan Simonsen, scorer for the losing side, won the Ballon d'Or in 1977 - but your other 5 players are correct for question (2).

                      And you're right, of course, about the nine consecutive low-scoring finals but, combine as you will for question (1), "consecutive low scoring" is different from "the exact same score as the previous year".

                      [Sorry but if I let you off the rest of the class will think they can be sloppy too ...]
                      Last edited by Alex Anderson; 21-01-2018, 02:20. Reason: Ooh, she's a right stickler her

                      Comment


                        Didn't Kaka, Ronaldo, and Messi win the Ballon D'Or after winning the CL three years in a row (07-09)?

                        Comment


                          I cheated, and then got lost in the history of the Ballon d'Or. Lev Yashin managed to win it in 1963 even though Soviet teams weren't even entered in the European Cup, which is quite an achievement. However, he did play for the Rest of the World against England at Wembley, and in those Anglocentric times, that was probably worth a dozen of yer "continental" trophies.

                          RSSSF has not only the awards but the full voting through the years; by 1982 the Anglophilia had worn off to such an extent that even the neighbours were collateral damage. Not one player from the British Isles (sorry) got a single vote.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Alex Anderson View Post
                            Afraid Keegan's wrong, ursus
                            OK...:-)

                            Comment


                              1966: 2-1
                              1967: 2-1

                              1968: 4-1
                              1969: 4-1

                              1971: 2-0
                              1972: 2-0

                              1978: 1-0
                              1979: 1-0
                              1980: 1-0
                              1981: 1-0
                              1982: 1-0
                              1983: 1-0

                              1992: 1-0
                              1993: 1-0

                              2006: 2-1
                              2007: 2-1

                              2009: 2-0
                              2010: 2-0

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                OK...:-)
                                Oh god. Does this count as identity theft? Ursus is gonnae sue the ass off me

                                Erm ... How dare you come on here and impersonate him like that, Satchmo! Yeah - dressing up like ursus, putting on his voice and generally being all "ursusy". It's your fault so it is! The fact I was on this thread at 2am on a Sunday morning is completely irrelevant!


                                But - yeah - Keegan's wrong mate. Correct with all the others.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by ooh aah View Post
                                  Didn't Kaka, Ronaldo, and Messi win the Ballon D'Or after winning the CL three years in a row (07-09)?
                                  Yup.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by tee rex View Post
                                    I cheated, and then got lost in the history of the Ballon d'Or. Lev Yashin managed to win it in 1963 even though Soviet teams weren't even entered in the European Cup, which is quite an achievement. However, he did play for the Rest of the World against England at Wembley, and in those Anglocentric times, that was probably worth a dozen of yer "continental" trophies.
                                    Sir Stanley getting the first one would certainly back that up, tee rex. That's why I thought it was quite an interesting question (although, being honest, the words "European" and "ball" are all you need to have me snorting about like a particularly rabid truffle pig) - going through the winners has you wondering exactly what they achieved that year. What were the selection criteria? From what I can see, being the creative force, top scorer or captain of that year's European Cup, Euro Championship or World Cup winners are the three favourite qualifications for the panel of judges.

                                    With some winners, though, it's like it was just "their turn" - like when Dame Judi Dench finally got her Oscar it was for a mere cameo role. Ferencváros winning the Hungarian league in 1967 was Florian Albert's 5 minutes in Shakespeare in Love. As you say, it's more likely everyone still remembered him from the summer of 1966 in Liverpool.

                                    Originally posted by tee rex View Post
                                    RSSSF has not only the awards but the full voting through the years; by 1982 the Anglophilia had worn off to such an extent that even the neighbours were collateral damage. Not one player from the British Isles (sorry) got a single vote.
                                    The irony being that this was during the greatest period of domination of the European Cup by England - in fact, the greatest single period of ECCC/UCL domination by any nation to date.
                                    Last edited by Alex Anderson; 22-01-2018, 10:14. Reason: Dennis Law's was bona fide earned though, Scotland winning that summer's Euros with him top scorer. Yes he was. Yes they did.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by 3 Colours Red View Post
                                      1966: 2-1
                                      1967: 2-1

                                      1968: 4-1
                                      1969: 4-1

                                      1971: 2-0
                                      1972: 2-0

                                      1978: 1-0
                                      1979: 1-0
                                      1980: 1-0
                                      1981: 1-0
                                      1982: 1-0
                                      1983: 1-0

                                      1992: 1-0
                                      1993: 1-0

                                      2006: 2-1
                                      2007: 2-1

                                      2009: 2-0
                                      2010: 2-0
                                      I mean, I'd really have liked the teams and that ... it's a bit cold ...

                                      But, ok - question (1) is answered.
                                      Last edited by Alex Anderson; 21-01-2018, 12:07. Reason: I did NOT say "school of science" ...

                                      Comment


                                        Sorry about that, Alex!

                                        1966: Real Madrid 2-1 Partizan
                                        1967: Celtic 2-1 Inter

                                        1968: Man Utd 4-1 Benfica
                                        1969: AC Milan 4-1 Ajax

                                        1971: Ajax 2-0 Panathinaikos
                                        1972: Ajax 2-0 Inter

                                        1978: Liverpool 1-0 Bruges
                                        1979: Forest 1-0 Malmo
                                        1980: Forest 1-0 Hamburg
                                        1981: Liverpool 1-0 Real Madrid
                                        1982: Villa 1-0 Bayern
                                        1983: Hamburg 1-0 Juventus

                                        1992: Barca 1-0 Sampdoria
                                        1993: Marseille 1-0 AC Milan

                                        2006: Barca 2-1 Arsenal
                                        2007: AC Milan 2-1 Liverpool

                                        2009: Barca 2-0 Man Utd
                                        2010: Inter 2-0 Bayern

                                        Comment


                                          That's lovely, 3 Colours. Thanks.

                                          It's blizzard conditions in Glasgow - but I feel all warm and snuggly now.

                                          And congratulations on correctly answering question (1).

                                          ================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ==========================

                                          Last edited by Alex Anderson; 17-05-2018, 18:51. Reason: Page 69

                                          Comment


                                            Raymond Kopa is the missing player for Question 2.

                                            Comment


                                              Kopa is correct, Satchmo.

                                              So congrats to Ursus, ooh aah and Satchmo for providing all nine other players - eleven including Best and Rivera - to win the first available Ballon d'Or after winning the European Cup/Champions League.

                                              But it's happened eighteen times overall. Question (2) remains partly unanswered. So if anyone wants to specify which of those eleven players has done it more than once, and how many times each of those has done it ... even chuck in a year here and there (Nah? Pushing too hard?), I'll let you off with the incomprehensible question (3).

                                              But there will be no clues ...

                                              Last edited by Alex Anderson; 21-01-2018, 17:07. Reason: "Ye gettin the ring in? Can ye see it? Naw - ah KNOW ye've got the watch in but whit aboot the ring??!! It's fuckin boss ..."

                                              Comment


                                                In light of Jimmy Armfield's death (Leeds, 1975), who is the oldest coach of a finalist still living?

                                                Comment


                                                  I almost did it - I almost said Ron Saunders ... but instead I'll go for a Heynckes, Houghton or Hiddink.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                                    In light of Jimmy Armfield's death (Leeds, 1975), who is the oldest coach of a finalist still living?
                                                    There won't be many older than Trap, I'm guessing?

                                                    Comment

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