European Cup Trivia

[ursus arctos]

Resorting to underage males, Alex

Take a look at yourself in the mirror, son

[seand]

Norbert Nachtweih, East Germany, played the whole of the 1987 final for Bayern Munich in Vienna against Porto.

He is, 3 Colours - he is the "fuck off" answer but ... right! - okay! Come on, lads - settle down - we've all had a few drinks [who threw that??!! Spitting ??!!- at your age, ursus??!! ... that's out of order!] ... listen ... just hear me out:

I'm considering him the only purely,solely, as-far-as-football-was-concerned, DDR national - and international, at U-21 level - to have played in the final. His defection seals it for me.

From Wiki:

"Even though he was one of the best German footballers in the 1980s, FIFA formalities forbade a career in the West German national team, as he had previously appeared with East Germany."

I know, Sammer and Kirsten (maybe others I've missed) played for both the DDR and the "re-unified" Germany (i.e., the DFB absorbing their Eastern counterparts in the same way the countries "re-unified") and we had guys like Jens Jeremeis, Carsten Jancker and Michael Ballack who were born in the DDR but were of an age where their international career would only be for the DFB.

But Nachtweih, though still playing, was too old to play for the DFB by the time the wall fell down and the DDR disappeared.

He's the only East German to have played in the final who didn't then go on to play for "Germany" Germany. Ropey but - ach - feels right to me.

All objections to this address.

Objection you honour! I had "Sammer" ready and waiting for any invocation of Nachtweih, but it appears that thanks to some Byzantine alcohol-fuelled rules system dreamed up in the head of the question setter my objection may be over-ruled. This is the kinf of anarchic attitude to the rules that ended up with a certain Scottish football behemoth going to the wall! ;-)

Anyway, back to trivia, and a suitably stupid question.... which two Mr Men have won the European Cup/Champions League?

[tee rex]

Quality quiz from Alex there, even if "quality" really means "making me waste a crapload of time trying to find players from Saarland or Surinam who snuck on as a sub in black and white" (which I couldn't, because they didn't). I thought the elusive answer was Rinus Israel (geddit?).

If anyone wants to extend the torture to the Cup Winners' Cup, you can have Wynton Rufer for Werder Bremen/NZ. That's all I have to offer.

[ad hoc]

Anyway, back to trivia, and a suitably stupid question.... which two Mr Men have won the European Cup/Champions League?

Messi is one, fairly obviously.

[Kevin S]

And Rush.

[seand]

Yes and indeed yes, though I have to admit the depth of my research may have been on the shallow side. Let me know if you are aware of a Jordi Forgetful or Aleksandr Angri we're missing

(I suspect Geoff Strong may have played in the 66 CWC final with Liverpool if we want to extend this line of enquiry )

[wittoner]

There was Mr Rude (Gullit) of course though Little Miss (Dennis) Wise was long gone from Chelsea when they reached the final.

[Alex Anderson]

Resorting to underage males, Alex

Take a look at yourself in the mirror, son

As soon as I can find one wide enough, ursus ...

Okay, if you want to take Norbert away (which does indeed sound like a euphemism used by a predatory youth coach), I will understand why. But you have to understand something. What country a player represents/is eligible to represent can be a very fluid matter. And the parameters by which that decision are made are also, ye know, quite damp:

For examples; We've got Kubala and Di Stefano having three separate international careers for three very separate countries (not helped by the fact Czechoslovakia later split up so, in some sense, you could claim Kubala played for four countries). You have Dejan Stanković being the only man to have played for three different countries at the World Cup finals yet never having to change his nationality.

And we have Craig Johnston, who was eligible for somewhere between four and six different nations.

And, for the sake of this question, we're looking at it all retrospectively: This considerably thickens the foliage of this particular jungle.

Decisions must be made. You sit there in your Ivory towers, or on the side-lines (I can't quite decide yet. Maybe "backseat driving"? Mmm. I'll check Wiki later) - judging me. Chipping away. Saying things about my mum (No - wait; that was me). But I go out there - ALONE! - into that wild, untamed forest of stats and politics and geography and - goddamit! - I make decisions. I hack and I chop and I plough onwards. It's not easy (that's two different implements I'm carrying for a start) but I TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY ON MYSELF FOR THE SAKE OF THIS TOPIC ... for the sake of this thread ... hey - who knows - maybe I'm doing it for the European Cup itself.

Or maybe I just care about humanity a little bit more than most.

Hero? Ach, it's an overused word these days. Perhaps I'm just brave - in a foolish sort of way. It's not really for me to say. But when a European Cup Trivia topic beckons, I do what needs to be done:

Johnston chose to play for England at U-21 level; He only wanted to play for England: For the sake of this question, he's English. DECISION MADE.





Yugoslavia internationals who played in this final in 1966 and 1991 who would consider themselves to be Macedonian and Montenegrin? That's it - every FYR has had more than one player to appear in the final. Kosovo wasn't a FYR. Decision made. By me. Responsibility taken. Again.





And there's only ONE GUY WHO PLAYED IN THIS FINAL WHO COULD NEVER REALISTICALLY HAVE PLAYED FOR ANYONE ELSE AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL BUT EAST GERMANY! Norbert fekin Nachtweih. Bang! Decision decisively decided - judgement call, erm, called. We need the kinda person with the psychological strength to do that or else there'd never be a fu**ing decent trivia question round here.

YOU'RE WELCOME!






The "DDRness" of Sammer (Dortmund 1997) and Ulf Kirsten (Bayer Leverkusen 2002) was, for me, diluted by them playing - quite extensively - for the DFB.

Yes, I know, officially, our Norbert was eligible for the DFB after the fall of the wall (Or probably was - would take more than the collapse of the Warsaw Pact to make FIFA revoke a ban). However, as ursus was saying earlier, no-one's having Christian Karembeu (Real Madrid 1998) as the only New Caledonian to have played in the final. Primarily because he chose to play for France, was in the midst of his French international career when he played in the Champions League final, and never turned out officially for "the land of his birth" ... which is a French overseas territory ... which could therefore be said to be "France" anyway.

For me, Norbert Nachtweih, football-politically, was less BDR German than Christian Karembeu was New Caledonian. It's a judgement call.

I've basically ignored "Yugoslavia" and looked only at the nations which replaced it, all of which were around in one form or another before the formation of Yugoslavia. Because of the deep ethnic and nationalistic divisions extant even during Tito's reign, I applied today's former Yugoslav nations to Partizan's 1966 and Red Star's 1991 finalists ... which suddenly become very multi-national. But, I suppose, by that rule, I should also ignore East Germany's existence ...

I dunno. I felt ... I just thought ... maybe I should've ... Oh, it was Wikipedia! Okay??!! Alright??!! I admit it - It was the Wikipedia what made me do it, guv! Happy now??!! You go through all those finals on Wiki and go through all those line-ups and all the players have those cute little national flags next to their names ... and across sixty two pages of two cup final squads (four squads in the case of the 1974 final) there's only one - just ONE - tiny, solitary DDR flag. A lonely wee garlanded hammer and compass on the black, red and gold - beside any name of any player in any ECCC/UCL Final. It's beside the name of the guy who played sweeper for Bayern in the 1987 European Cup final.

And while we all know Wiki is 100% kosher, completely reliable and totally sound, you can, if you like, take Norbert Nachtweih off the list. (which I'm sure makes a nice change for a man who would have been on a few more than he liked)

[Alex Anderson]

Objection you honour! I had "Sammer" ready and waiting for any invocation of Nachtweih, but it appears that thanks to some Byzantine alcohol-fuelled rules system dreamed up in the head of the question setter my objection may be over-ruled. This is the kinf of anarchic attitude to the rules that ended up with a certain Scottish football behemoth going to the wall! ;-)

I wouldn't call Airdrieonians a behemoth, but Airdrie United's double-headed eagle crest was indeed very Byzantine. Asda own brand chicken wings are the fuel here yet, while my bloodstream maintains a constant 40% proof, I felt my criteria were powered more by the kind of mealy-mouthed emoting which seamlessly sustains another Scottish behemoth. "He was never a Yugoslav!", quoth Alex the Armchair Freedom Fighter; "Despite the badge the regime made him wear he was always a proud Montenegrin was Dejan Savicevic ... so there's no way I'm having Stefan Savić as the only Montenegrin to play in the final* ... "

And I included Young Norbert as a reminder to the modern, Champions League-obsessed world that the oppressive DDR regime existed. He's a statistical martyr ...

Ach, fuck it. Yese ur right. I cannae really get away with Naughty Norbert.

Okay. To bring it all to a close, here's the complete list, as I conceived it - and then the side letter list.

Only players from a country to play in the Final of the European Champion Clubs' Cup/UEFA Champions League:
(as per a fat, totally not-bitter Scottish bloke)

Mario Lemina – Gabon – Juventus 2017
Juan Cuadrado – Colombia – Juventus 2017
Keylor Navas - Costa Rica – Real Madrid 2016 and 2017
Arturo Vidal – Chile – Juventus 2015
Park Ji-Sung – South Korea – Man United 2009 and 2011
Antonio Valencia – Ecuador – Man United 2011
Alexander Hleb – Belorussia - Arsenal 2006
Harry Kewell - Australia - Liverpool 2005 and 2007
Dmitri Alenichev – Russia – Porto 2004
Benni McCarthy – South Africa – Porto 2004
Shabani Nonda - DRC – AS Monaco 2004
Kakha Kaladze – Georgia - Milan 2003 and 2007
Dwight Yorke – Trinidad and Tobago - Man United 1999
Vata (Matanu Garcia) – Angola – Benfica 1990
Hajry (Redouane) – Morocco - Benfica 1988
Rabah Madjer – Algeria – Porto 1987
Norbert Nachtweih – East Germany – Bayern 1987
Bruce Grobbelaar – Rhodesia and Zimbabwe – Liverpool 1984 and 85
Massimo Bonini - San Marino – Juventus 1983 and 1985
Victor Benitez – Peru – Milan 1963


Only players from a country to play in the Final of the European Champion Clubs' Cup/UEFA Champions League:
(if you endorse and actively support dictatorial regimes. No judgement)

Mario Lemina – Gabon – Juventus 2017
Juan Cuadrado – Colombia – Juventus 2017
Keylor Navas - Costa Rica – Real Madrid 2016 and 2017
Stefan Savić - Montenegro - Atletico Madrid 2016
Arturo Vidal – Chile – Juventus 2015
Goran Pandev - Macedonia - Internazionale 2010
Park Ji-Sung – South Korea – Man United 2009 and 2011
Antonio Valencia – Ecuador – Man United 2011
Alexander Hleb – Belorussia - Arsenal 2006
Harry Kewell - Australia - Liverpool 2005 and 2007
Dmitri Alenichev – Russia – Porto 2004
Benni McCarthy – South Africa – Porto 2004
Shabani Nonda - DRC – AS Monaco 2004
Kakha Kaladze – Georgia - Milan 2003 and 2007
Dwight Yorke – Trinidad and Tobago - Man United 1999
Vata (Matanu Garcia) – Angola – Benfica 1990
Hajry (Redouane) – Morocco - Benfica 1988
Rabah Madjer – Algeria – Porto 1987
Bruce Grobbelaar – Rhodesia and Zimbabwe – Liverpool 1984 and 85
Massimo Bonini - San Marino – Juventus 1983 and 1985
Victor Benitez – Peru – Milan 1963


*[" ...although Predrag Mijatovic, scorer of Real Madrid's winner in the 1998 final, is also from what is now Montenegro ... but he was, strictly-speaking, from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the time of his greatest goal, as opposed to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from where all but Miodrag Belodedici hailed in the two Belgrade behemoth clubs' appearances in the final ... and our old mucker Savicevic was newly from the Federal Republic of Yugoland when he played and scored in the 1994 final for Milan ..."]

[Antepli Ejderha]

Brilliant Alex, absolutely fucking brilliant. Thanks for all of your efforts for the quiz. Now I'm looking forward to the next one.

[Alex Anderson]

Cheers, AE - though I think the effort is all on the part of the competitors when it comes to my quiz questions. The pain certainly is. I don't think seand's Mister Men quiz will ever be topped, however. That's genius.

Now I'm going through those six decades of team sheets again ... cross-referencing them with the most important document we've yet perused on these pages.

[seand]

Before we stick a fork in the 'only one player form this country in the EC/CL final' thread-in-a-thread can we have a look at the notable countries who've never had a CL finalist? Particularly the UEFA members. I reckon these (current) UEFA members have never fulfilled Alex's particular criteria:
Iceland (Gudjohnsson close)
Latvia, Lithuania , Estonia
Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan
Andorra, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Faroes, Gibraltar
Moldova, Malta, Cyprus, Kosovo, Albania
Israel (Avi Cohen didn't make Liverpool's final squad)
Saarland [member 54-56]
And now the big query..... has there ever been a Slovak in the EC/CL final?

[seand]

[double post]

[Alex Anderson]

Another tangent (and one I'm sure we touched on earlier in this thread):

I reckon it must be between Croatia and Denmark as to which UEFA nation has provided most players in the final without ever having one of its clubs in the final.

Not hiding behind the "Yugoslavia" thing here, either. No Croat club has ever made the final - as part of an independent nation or otherwise.

But could the Republic of Ireland be third?

[Alex Anderson]

... also none of those three nations has ever hosted the final either (something which came to mind as I began totting up the number of Welshmen to appear in the final. Which took place in Cardiff. Recently.)

[Alex Anderson]

... Israel (Avi Cohen didn't make Liverpool's final squad)
...

And, having shat myself when I couldn't initially remember when he moved to Anfield, Yossi Benayoun signed for Liverpool in the summer of 2007, just after their last appearance in the final. He'd definitely have got Harry Kewell's place in Athens otherwise ...

Saarland always makes me think about Helmut Schoen: Talking earlier about Dejan Stankovic playing for three different countries without ever having to actively change his nationality. Well, Dresden-born Schoen played for "Greater" (i.e., Nazi) Germany, then managed Saarland in qualifiers, against "West" Germany, then managed West Germany in their only game against "East" Germany. Involved in two separate derbies against what was previously and would now all be his own country.

[Alex Anderson]

... And now the big query..... has there ever been a Slovak in the EC/CL final?

Fermat's Last Theorem? Piece of piss compared to the László Kubala Conundrum ...

[ursus arctos]

Given that he was more Slovak than I am, Kubala should count.

His father was Slovak, his mother was part Slovak, and the first national team he played for was Czechoslovakia. He was even managed by his father-in-law Ferdinand Daučík (another Slovak) at Barcelona.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Even though I watched both games, I still can't really believe that Harry Kewell played in two champions league finals.

[Alex Anderson]

Given that he was more Slovak than I am, Kubala should count.

His father was Slovak, his mother was part Slovak, and the first national team he played for was Czechoslovakia. He was even managed by his father-in-law Ferdinand Daučík (another Slovak) at Barcelona.

Okay. Right. So now we ARE going with the emotional list??!! A guy who was born in Hungary, played for Hungary, never played for a country called Slovakia, played for Spain, managed Spain and - most damning of all - only has wee Hungary and Spain flags next to his name on the Wiki page for that 1961 European Cup final, IS SLOVAK??!!

Well, you can have his name on the list if you want to, young man. Oh, that's fine by me. But you can damn well wipe your Monetengrin and your Macedonian off that list because I'm pretty sure the parents of Branko Rašović (Partizan 1966) and Darko Pancev (Red Star 1991) - AMONGST OTHERS! - would have something to say about their boys only being from the "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"...

And you can write it up, master Arctos. I've done it twice already. Go on ...



Out of interest, how Slovak are you, Ursus?

[ursus arctos]

Half

You, sir, are the one who denies that Jocelyn Angloma (born in Guadeloupe, to Guadeloupean parents, having played 14 full internationals for Guadeloupe) is Guadeloupean.

As I've maintained (largely in vain) for the last several pages, one needs to be very clear as to how one is defining "nationality" before one can even attempt to answer the question.

I tend to think of such questions in terms of ethnicity, largely because that's how I was raised. An equally valid way to define it is to say that a player has to have represented the country in question in a full international.

Doing so, however, means that one has to accept that there was no such thing as a "Slovak footballer" before 1939 or between 1946 and 1994, which strikes me as inherently problematic.

[Alex Anderson]

you lookin for detention?



I would never deny Jocelyn his Guadeloupeaness. Apart from anything else, I've seen him up close. Anything he wants - he gets.

Just as I would never deny Norbert Nachtweih's right to have played for the DFB. And I could never deny the detail of my arguments are usually lost in a forest of verbosity but, if I'm being honest, I just love trying to negotiate what the parameters should be. It's the Parc des Prince's tenants all over again ...

Yes, I know, officially, our Norbert was eligible for the DFB after the fall of the wall (Or probably was - would take more than the collapse of the Warsaw Pact to make FIFA revoke a ban). However, as ursus was saying earlier, no-one's having Christian Karembeu (Real Madrid 1998) as the only New Caledonian to have played in the final. Primarily because he chose to play for France, was in the midst of his French international career when he played in the Champions League final, and never turned out officially for "the land of his birth" ... which is a French overseas territory ... which could therefore be said to be "France" anyway.

For me, Norbert Nachtweih, football-politically, was less BDR German than Christian Karembeu was New Caledonian. It's a judgement call.

I've basically ignored "Yugoslavia" and looked only at the nations which replaced it, all of which were around in one form or another before the formation of Yugoslavia. Because of the deep ethnic and nationalistic divisions extant even during Tito's reign, I applied today's former Yugoslav nations to Partizan's 1966 and Red Star's 1991 finalists ... which suddenly become very multi-national. But, I suppose, by that rule, I should also ignore East Germany's existence ...

Very fluid. Or inherently problematic. But could the answer be to allow them to have their two nationalities? So Angloma goes on the list? And, of course, Ladislav Kubala. Who can never be on enough esteemed lists.

Right now though I'm more worried if I should be apologising to you about my lot last month sucking Slovakia into Scotland's world of "close but no cigar ... well, you can smell the cigar ... you can see it ... you can even hold it - but you will never smoke it". I was at Tehelne Pole all those years back for Artmedia's 2-2 with Petrzalka ... but you'll know that. God knows, I've prattled on about that night even more than I have about the only players from their country to have played in a European Cup final ...

And that's probably like someone from Bratislava telling me "I was at Edinburgh Castle for ten minutes in 1974 ..."

[ursus arctos]

My fundamental problem with Nachtweih is that he never played a full international for the DDR, which means to me that one needs to go back and research the history of every player who appeared in a Final without having earned a full cap to make sure that they never played a representative match for one of the countries that aren't represented (or for one of the countries that are, thus eliminating them from the list).

As someone whose family (on both sides) has lived through their "homelands" appearing, disappearing and re-appearing from "official maps" (with relatively little impact on my peasant ancestors' daily lives), I tend to think that the "capped in a full international" is the easiest dividing line to maintain (and research), but at the same time recognise that it doesn't mean anything as regards how Kubala defined his own ethnicity.

BTW, Kubala also played for Catalunya. He may be unique in having represented four "nations" in internationals without ever having played more than six matches with any single nation.

[ursus arctos]

As it happens, I've never really identified with any Slovak national team, largely (I think) because my father's family did most everything they could to deny their ethnic heritage once they arrived in the US, including changing their name, losing the language, and "forgetting" just where in Slovakia they had come from.

There was a time when I took an interest in which players on the Czechoslovak national ice hockey team were Slovak (many of them were), but that was about the end of it for me.

[Alex Anderson]

Thing I liked was his relationship with Di Stefano. I didn't know they played together at Espanyol or that Di Stefano guested for Catalunya ... and the whole Franco conspiracy surrounding Real getting Di Stefano from Barca is almost reversed for the way Barca got Kubala, to the same ends.

The bit about his son's illness saving him from death in the Superga air crash takes him into the mythical - along with Herrera dropping him leading to Herrera being sacked.

Yup, his appearance for the World XI, leads to probably his most appropriate "nationality". And his career makes a lot of us want to forget our own heritage and become Slovak/Hungarian/Catalan ... whatever he wanted to be.


Anyway. We've been agreeing ...

you have to understand something. What country a player represents/is eligible to represent can be a very fluid matter. And the parameters by which that decision are made are also, ye know, quite damp:

Where we maybe disagree is that I don't think there can be any consistency to those parameters.

And this is why I was dreading (in no way whatsoever) the revelation of my 20th and final choice for the list. Coz Norbert Nachtweih reveals the criteria established by one fat bloke in Glasgow. And I've decided the criteria have to bend with what we know about each individual. There can be no one way to judge these players' nationalities.

For example:

It seems super strict - i.e, totally anal (and on these pages that's not an insult) - to say Kubala is in fact the only Czechoslovakian to play in the final, (as well as one of a number of Hungarians and a deluge of Spaniards to play in it). But it is strictly speaking correct.

Yet where are even these strictures coming from?

Is it geopolitics? Czechoslovakia no longer exists, Slovakia does. Is it time? Slovakia didn't "exist" as an independent country during Kubala's playing career. Or is it from FIFA and UEFA, who had no problem banning the likes of Kubala, Puskas and Nachtweih from playing all sorts of football because they'd dared to escape from dictatorial regimes? For example, I'm having Cuadrado as the only Colombian to play in the Final because Di Stefano's time playing for that country wasn't recognised by FIFA.

If we're more emotional and kind (and use what people call "common sense"), then he's absolutely on the list as the only Slovak to have played in the Final (as well as not on the list as one of the few Hungarians and many Spaniards); Of course Slovakia "existed" during the time it was part of Czechoslovakia. But maybe Kubala, with so much attachment to the city of Barcelona, regarded himself first and foremost as a native of Catalunya - recognised by neither international football nor Spain's governments, nor by the UN. Then again, maybe his time at Espanyol, coupled with his playing for and managing Spain, betrayed a more centralist bent in his loyalties.

And all this before we even get into how the UK are allowed four different countries in football but only one in the Olympics.

Craig Johnston was eligible for six football nations. For me he's England because he played for their U-21s and WANTED to play for England. Yet Nachtweih played for East Germany's U-21s and clearly didn't want to play for their full team (certainly not enough to stop him defecting anyway). And there's no DDR anymore. Yet, for me, he's the only East German to play in the Final because he didn't get a cap for West or re-unified Germany.

And the fact Yugoslavia was always regarded as Serbian-led (and then, as the Yugoslav states broke up, eventually became the name used by only what is now Serbia) ...

Och - can we go back to "Who's the only player to score a hat-trick in the Final and end up on the losing side ..."