Dunkirk

[Central Rain]

Richard Evans reviewed Ohler's book for the Guardian. In short, he thinks Ohler's thesis is utter bollocks.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...n-ohler-review

[Hot Pepsi]

As I mentioned before, the Spitfire is a beautiful machine. It's too bad it's for war. The American Mustang was also really nice.

One of the national myths is that Dunkirk, saw the end of the fighting for British land forces. It didn't, elements of a 2nd BEF were landed and evacuated from Le Havre. Large numbers of British servicemen and women were evacuated from Cherbourg, my step-mother's father among them. This was after he had failed to get out at St. Nazaire after the Lancastria sinking on the 17 June. The 51st Highland Division was captured at St. Valery on the 11/12 June. There is evidence to suggest some British stragglers got out as far south as Bordeaux.

That's not a myth so much as a misunderstanding brought about by oversimplification. Kind of like "The Revolutionary War ended at Yorktown."

While civilian sailors did man the little ships, most were manned by Navy and Navy reserve personnel.

Oh, that's right. I forgot that part. They show that in the film, but show Mark Rylance's character shoving off before the Navy can commandeer his boat because he wants to do it himself

[Erskine Bridges]

Richard Evans reviewed Ohler's book for the Guardian. In short, he thinks Ohler's thesis is utter bollocks.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...n-ohler-review

Thanks for that, I've just read the review and I'd agree with some of it. Interestingly when the reviewer mentions 35M pills for 2.5M soldiers being on the low side, Ohler states that he can't establish whether it was 35M pills or 35M doses which could be a pack of 16 pills. Also, the daily dose was only a few pills and there weren't 2.5M soldiers in action on the front line. I do think there is something in his theory about the part meth played in the battle for France, especially in the crucial early stage.

I haven't got the impression that Ohler thought the entire country was high or that he is trying to exonerate Hitler but he does present him as a rather pathetic figure for quite a large part of the war. Which he certainly was by the end but I hadn't thought he was in 1943 say. The timeline in the book is a little confused. Hitler did make a lot of monumental tactical blunders which played a big part in them losing and I've never really understood why more of the senior Nazis and/or Generals didn't step in, either to stop his poorer tactical decisions or when it must have been clear that the war was lost probably before the end of 1943. Implicates the fuckers even more I'd say.

Ohler's theory is that Hitler was on a chemically induced high which allowed him to live in a parallel reality and believe they could still win but they weren't all junkies.

While on the Nazi subject, I also recommend 'The Perfect Nazi' by Martin Davidson. The perfect Nazi being Davidson's grandfather who joined the SA very early, got to officer in the SS and remained unrepentant until his comfortable death long after the war. It is a fascinating insight into what made these guys tick. And it does probably answer at least in part my own question above. It wasn't just about Hitler. A lot of these guys really believed and never stopped.

[Hot Pepsi]

Thanks for that, I've just read the review and I'd agree with some of it. Interestingly when the reviewer mentions 35M pills for 2.5M soldiers being on the low side, Ohler states that he can't establish whether it was 35M pills or 35M doses which could be a pack of 16 pills. Also, the daily dose was only a few pills and there weren't 2.5M soldiers in action on the front line. I do think there is something in his theory about the part meth played in the battle for France, especially in the crucial early stage.

I haven't got the impression that Ohler thought the entire country was high or that he is trying to exonerate Hitler but he does present him as a rather pathetic figure for quite a large part of the war. Which he certainly was by the end but I hadn't thought he was in 1943 say. The timeline in the book is a little confused. Hitler did make a lot of monumental tactical blunders which played a big part in them losing and I've never really understood why more of the senior Nazis and/or Generals didn't step in, either to stop his poorer tactical decisions or when it must have been clear that the war was lost probably before the end of 1943. Implicates the fuckers even more I'd say.

Ohler's theory is that Hitler was on a chemically induced high which allowed him to live in a parallel reality and believe they could still win but they weren't all junkies.

While on the Nazi subject, I also recommend 'The Perfect Nazi' by Martin Davidson. The perfect Nazi being Davidson's grandfather who joined the SA very early, got to officer in the SS and remained unrepentant until his comfortable death long after the war. It is a fascinating insight into what made these guys tick. And it does probably answer at least in part my own question above. It wasn't just about Hitler. A lot of these guys really believed and never stopped.

Fascism and anti-semitism have roots going back to the middle ages and further. No need to suspect drugs or the sudden introduction of something else like that to explain it.

[Logan Mountstuart]

Thank you to you all. This is why I love and will always love otf. I will make a point to contribute as much as possible on future WW1 threads, which is really my speciality.

From all the information I have read here since my last post, I think the role of French troops in the perimeter defence is the most glaring omission in the popular myth built up around Dunkerque.

Even in this (superb) film, the refusal to allow French troops to board from the pontoons, and the reaction of the British troops in the beached boat to the unearthing of the French boy's identity were pretty telling.

The jokes about "cheese eating surrender monkeys" are perhaps one of the more damning indictments of British chutzpah , regarding both world wars.

Love him or dislike him (hard to loathe surely), Kermode was right about Christopher Nolan 's films when he said that he assumes the audience is intelligent enough to work out for itself what is going on and to draw it's own conclusions from his films. Admittedly, the subliminal Zimmer soundtracks probably point the way in most people's heads but you can't walk out of this or Inception or Interstellar or even Memento without feeling the need to desperately seek someone out to find out if they agreed with you. That's pretty unique for modern day blockbuster films. And to make a film like that without recourse to cgi is remarkable and brave. Just for that, I can accept the relative paucity of troops on the beach.

[Erskine Bridges]

Fascism and anti-semitism have roots going back to the middle ages and further. No need to suspect drugs or the sudden introduction of something else like that to explain it.

HP I wasn't trying to do that.

[Hot Pepsi]

I know. I was supporting your point about "true believers."

[Erskine Bridges]

I know. I was supporting your point about "true believers."

Ah, OK!

[Satchmo Distel]

The book linked below debunks the belief that the Nazis would have won the war if they had carried on at Dunkirk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Allies-Had-...f=cm_lmf_tit_5

[ad hoc]

Awesomeness

https://twitter.com/ustuntman/status/889979191722205184

(PS How do I make a tweet like this one show up as an image or embedded thingamibob? )

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Saw this last night with my daughters. Visually a stunning film. Almost a horror movie, such is the constant threat of impending disaster about to befall, well, everyone. From start to finish. I need to see it again only because I didn't quite pick up all of the interwoven bits of land, sea and air stories until the very end. The score is marmite - I loved it, one of the Roginettes hated it. Personally I'll be amazed if it doesn't win an Oscar, and both the film, Nolan and Rylance will surely be nominated as well.

[ursus arctos]

ad hoc, tweets only embed if you find or create an image of them in one of the supported image formats (JPEG, gif, etc)

[Levin]

https://twitter.com/ustuntman/status/889979191722205184

{tweet}{/tweet} with square brackets instead of curly ones have worked in the past. But they seem to take a little while to get the tweet in place.

Motherfucking thing. Why isn't it working? I've just checked the code of a post where I've embedded a tweet and it is tweet within square brackets.

Edit like number 6: it worked when I turned the editor to wysiwyg mode.

[ad hoc]

Thanks. Though sadly that omits the poundshop Lord Haw-haw's original tweet, which is a bit of a shame.

[ursus arctos]

Yes, it doesn't work with more than one level of tweet

[ad hoc]

It is working for me Levin

[Satchmo Distel]

Zimmer's soundtrack album is available and likely to make the charts.

[NickSTFU]

[QUOTE=Hot Pepsi;1331890]

One of the national myths is that Dunkirk, saw the end of the fighting for British land forces. It didn't, elements of a 2nd BEF were landed and evacuated from Le Havre. Large numbers of British servicemen and women were evacuated from Cherbourg, my step-mother's father among them. This was after he had failed to get out at St. Nazaire after the Lancastria sinking on the 17 June. The 51st Highland Division was captured at St. Valery on the 11/12 June. There is evidence to suggest some British stragglers got out as far south as Bordeaux.

That's not a myth so much as a misunderstanding brought about by oversimplification. Kind of like "The Revolutionary War ended at Yorktown."


Misunderstandings become myths. Look at the opening post.

I had to remind myself, but between 140,000 and 150,000 British troops were evacuated from other ports south of the Somme (plus other nationalities of course) a tremendous effort all things considered.

Yet the UK's national conscience is fixated on Dunkirk. When I was growing up it was Dunkirk, the 'Dunkirk spirit' and lines of orderly British troops on the beaches.

Dunkirk was one a part of a wider evacuation, a Guards battalion fixed bayonets and shot deserters from the line and the majority of troops were picked from Dunkirk harbour.

[Guy Profumo]

While civilian sailors did man the little ships, most were manned by Navy and Navy reserve personnel.

One of the national myths is that Dunkirk, saw the end of the fighting for British land forces. It didn't, elements of a 2nd BEF were landed and evacuated from Le Havre. Large numbers of British servicemen and women were evacuated from Cherbourg, my step-mother's father among them. This was after he had failed to get out at St. Nazaire after the Lancastria sinking on the 17 June. The 51st Highland Division was captured at St. Valery on the 11/12 June. There is evidence to suggest some British stragglers got out as far south as Bordeaux.

Yep.

My uncle was evacuated out of Cherbourg in the months and weeks following Dunkirk.

He did something catastrophic to his leg, and had to continue walking through northern France to be able to embark - he was subsequently invalided out of his guard's regiment, and subsequently went into the catering corps.

[Crusoe]

I've been reading the articles bemoaning the lack of representation of French and, on the BBC website this week, Indian troops at Dunkirk.

I sympathise with the producers' view that it's not supposed to be a comprehensive historical overview. It's an interesting contrast to the moans years back that Saving Private Ryan ignored the British and Canadian beaches.

[Guy Profumo]

Or the view from the troops on the ground the "RAF simply weren't there" - they were, but engaging the Luftwaffe either too high to be seen, or much further inland.

To the extent that some RAF pilots who'd been shot down and their airfields subsequently overrun were physically prevented from boarding at the muster stations.

[Patrick Thistle]

I've just seen this and I thought it was amazing. The aerial sequences were incredibly well done. It really showed how big the sky is, which I know sounds stupid but a lot of films the hero is immediately on the tail of the enemy. The engine sounds were frightening. The scream of the stuka bombers felt scary.

[Spoiler]
I felt a bit emotional when the boat owner's son went into the newspaper office at the end.

[tuckwat]

Saw this with my two sons one of whom covered his face and sobbed when the little boats turned up and Edward Elgar Nimrod cover version kicked in. I was a bit teary as well.

[Guy Profumo]

It was OK.

I'm glad I watched it, but wouldn't have paid money to see it, getting it on my freebie for Baby Driver having been interrupted.

[Guy Profumo]

And another thing.

If you want to watch it, watch at the cinema

Not on DVD.