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    Dunkirk

    I went to watch this today and found it incredibly intense. I literally couldn't relax and found myself constantly nervous as to what would happen next. The film follows three individuals at Dunkirk - one a Spitfire pilot, a small ship coming from the south coast of England and a soldier on the beaches. The film jumps between each even though what we're following is one hour with the pilot, one day with the boat and one week with the soldier. I won't go into what happens to each, but it is very well woven together. Also, there is very little dialogue. The image of Dunkirk has been a rather sanitised one of soldiers standing in long queues drinking tea and singing Knees Up Mother Brown. This film dispels that idea and shows Dunkirk as the hell it really was.

    Just one thing - that train at the end. Wrong carriage for that era!
    Last edited by Paul S; 23-07-2017, 20:09.

    #2
    You've been reading the wrong books then.

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      #3
      I saw it yesterday, a regular screening, not a 35/75mm IMAX job. Visually superb as usual from a Nolan film, with a brilliant score from Hans Zimmer. The sound was terrific, and I liked that he cast a lot of relatively unknown young actors. The structure just about worked, regarding the different time frames and overall it is a brilliant immersive piece of cinema. The dialogue on a couple of occasions was a little bit of a letdown, but that is a minor quibble. It's a beautiful film to look at, incredibly tense and I don't mind admitting I welled up a little on seeing the flotilla of little ships.

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        #4
        I had some tears as well but that was during the first 30 minutes. Very powerful stuff.

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          #5
          I too saw it yesterday and agree completely w/ reviews of Rob and Paul. Also saw on a regular screening which was fine by me. Don't think I could have handled an IMAX screening of a wall to wall roller coaster ride of Spitfires and sinking ships.

          Echoing RobW, the sound editor should win an Oscar, kept me totally on edge.

          Re: the soundtrack, my wife commented at the end of the film that it was a haunting, creepy soundtrack she had no desire to own. So yes, great work by Hans Zimmer.
          Last edited by Cal Alamein; 23-07-2017, 20:12.

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            #6
            After watching the film I went to view a local war memorial to the fisherman of Leigh-on-Sea who went to Dunkirk and never came back. RIP fellas, see you in Valhalla.

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              #7
              Thanks all for reviews. Although not planning to see it I am fascinated by Dunkirk (my Dad and an uncle survived the evacuation). I visited it a few times before the old man died just to try to try and get some idea of the scale etc.

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                #8
                I saw this in 4K last night, which I can thoroughly recommend. I concur completely with the reviews above. A beautifully crafted and visual film, and Hans Zimmer is a confirmed genius Imho.

                I have to admit that Dunkerque is a gaping hole in my Ww2 studies, but what confuses me is that the Germans didn't press their advantage harder having done all the hard work. Single Heinkels?

                Was it that their forces were already stretched enough pushing to Paris? Or did they simply think that clearing the continent of a British presence was sufficient for the moment?

                I can't help thinking that if they had really set their minds to it this could have been an absolute massacre.

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                  #9
                  The French Army acted heroically in defending Dunkirk. Is that not shown?

                  The weather was atrocious for flying above the town for the majority of the period in question. Additionally, the gas or oil works that got blown up cast a thick, heavy, oily cloud over the town.

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                    #10
                    French soldiers are manning the defences at the beginning, Levin.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Me Old Flower View Post
                      French soldiers are manning the defences at the beginning, Levin.
                      It doesn't really show much of the 40,000 of mostly (all?) French guys who covered the escape and mostly became POWs in appalling conditions for their trouble. It shows a few of those guys in the beginning, stuck in behind sandbags, etc, but doesn't show the scale of that effort or what happened to them. It also doesn't really show just how much gear the British had to leave behind. It does show those guys making a makeshift pier out of trucks. That was very clever and that really happened, apparently.

                      But mostly, the film doesn't bother to show much context. I think Nolan rightly figured out that the audience can look it up in Wikipedia and his job is to show what it was like for participants. It doesn't, as far as I can tell, even use real historical officers. Branagh's character and that other guy who's always in British movies but whose name I forget are just amalgams of the real officers. (I enjoyed the bit about the army guys thinking tides change every three hours and the Naval commander pointing out "well then, it's a good thing I'm in the navy and you're in the army.")

                      I also didn't think it looked like there were anywhere close to 400,000 men on the beaches. It looked like maybe 30,000 and the flotilla of small craft didn't look as big as it really was. Perhaps because Nolan doesn't like CGI. Or maybe I just have a poor eye for crowds.

                      I had a hard time following the dialog because ll the sound effects were so loud. Perhaps that was intentional or maybe my theater had the mix wrong. Kenneth Branagh said in an interview that the Dunkirk veterans he saw it with said the film is louder than the actual battle. Of course, they're all in their 90s now so they're grateful to hear anything, I suppose.

                      Also, I learned that Dunkirk/Dunkerque (meaning Church by a Dune, I guess) is in France. My memory of learning about it in 10th grade, left me thinking it was in Belgium. It's almost in Belgium, I guess.

                      It also should make Americans feel a bit humbled because we're always taught "we saved your asses in WWII!" But we got there a lot later than we should have. We should have been at Dunkirk. Well, actually, we, among others, should have done a lot more to stop the war from ever starting. But still. Isolationism, etc.

                      Dudes back then ALWAYS WORE A TIE. It's amazing. The RAF pilot who isn't Tom Hardy is clearly wearing a necktie into battle. The past was weird.

                      [minor spoiler]
                      I also wonder if it's really possible for a spitfire to glide that far without fuel. Perhaps. They were well-designed. Back when Britain still made things, blah blah, etc. Jets can't do that, I'm sure.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Logan Mountstuart View Post
                        I
                        I have to admit that Dunkerque is a gaping hole in my Ww2 studies, but what confuses me is that the Germans didn't press their advantage harder having done all the hard work. Single Heinkels?

                        Was it that their forces were already stretched enough pushing to Paris? Or did they simply think that clearing the continent of a British presence was sufficient for the moment?
                        Various historians have given various reasons, the latest being that Goring persuaded Hitler to let the Luftwaffe finish the job over Dunkirk. The truth is probably a mix of the evidence available.

                        The German high command were well aware that there was still a large powerful (on paper) French army south of the Somme, the British counter-attack at Arras made the German high command nervous and the mainly foot-slogging infantry were exhausted trying to keep up with the Panzer spearhead. Added to this the German logistics train was mainly horse drawn transport. Fuel, spares, food, ammunition, and all other bits and bobs that keep an army going were on the back of a cart somewhere.

                        Another thing to consider, is that Dunkirk was only one of several evacuation ports/points/beaches.

                        I'm sure it's a great film, but it appears to reinforcing certain national myths.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                          [minor spoiler]
                          I also wonder if it's really possible for a spitfire to glide that far without fuel. Perhaps. They were well-designed. Back when Britain still made things, blah blah, etc. Jets can't do that, I'm sure.
                          Slate.com cites Bowman's RAF book, which reported 15 miles without an engine was certainly possible.

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                            #14
                            Passenger jets can glide significant distances

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                              #15
                              Former pot-pilot Robert Piché also did a very good job.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by NickSTFU View Post
                                Various historians have given various reasons, the latest being that Goring persuaded Hitler to let the Luftwaffe finish the job over Dunkirk. The truth is probably a mix of the evidence available.

                                The German high command were well aware that there was still a large powerful (on paper) French army south of the Somme, the British counter-attack at Arras made the German high command nervous and the mainly foot-slogging infantry were exhausted trying to keep up with the Panzer spearhead. Added to this the German logistics train was mainly horse drawn transport. Fuel, spares, food, ammunition, and all other bits and bobs that keep an army going were on the back of a cart somewhere.

                                Another thing to consider, is that Dunkirk was only one of several evacuation ports/points/beaches.

                                I'm sure it's a great film, but it appears to reinforcing certain national myths.

                                I think its a case where the myth is largely true. Something like 400,000 men saved with a huge effort from civilians. One guy apparently paddled a canoe. I'm not sure about that, though. Hard to keep a canoe right-side up in water that choppy.

                                One thing the film points out is that the army guys were pissed off that the RAF didn't seem to be there. But the RAF was actually doing a really good job, just that most of the action was further out to sea. Indeed, from what I read, the RAF fighters were a big reason the evacuation worked. They lost a lot but they shot down more Germans than they lost.

                                I think its just remembered as "Dunkirk," but it was a much wider area. Dunkirk itself isn't very big.

                                Apparently, Hitler claimed it as an enormous success for his side, which it largely was, even though they failed to strike what would have been a potentially devastating blow.
                                I suppose relying on his air (and sea, I suppose) forces to finish it off made sense from his perspective. If the Nazis tried to push the last few miles into the sea, they would have succeeded eventually, but would have lost a lot of men. Perhaps he overestimated his air force relative to the RAF.

                                Had it turned out differently, I don't know what would have happened. Its one of those things people speculate about. Perhaps we'd all be Nazis now. Or perhaps the US would have gotten into the war sooner and things would have eventually turned around. After all, US and British stories about the war tend to underestimate the importance of the other front where TWENTY-FUCKING-MILLION Soviets gave their lives to stop the Nazis. Hitler would have eventually failed in Russia, regardless. As Eddie Izzard points out, yeah you get five more armies every turn, but its impossible to hold all of Asia.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Me Old Flower View Post
                                  Slate.com cites Bowman's RAF book, which reported 15 miles without an engine was certainly possible.
                                  Good to know. I suspect the weather and terrain would have a lot to do with it just as it does with gliders (the kind designed to be gliders, I mean).

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                    Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                    Former pot-pilot Robert Piché also did a very good job.

                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236
                                    Bloody Nora! I'm always flying with Canadian carriers from now on. Those pilots have some crazy skills.

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                                      #19
                                      I enjoyed the bit about the army guys thinking tides change every three hours and the Naval commander pointing out "well then, it's a good thing I'm in the navy and you're in the army."
                                      Yeah I enjoyed that bit as well. Top quote!

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                                        Hitler would have eventually failed in Russia, regardless. As Eddie Izzard points out, yeah you get five more armies every turn, but its impossible to hold all of Asia.
                                        Seven, in fact – as Mr Izzard correctly points out in that routine!

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                                          #21
                                          That's right. Not sure why five came to mind. I haven't played in so long.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            The RAF was also busy further inland. In addition to that, there really wasn't much of an air force left. Dad was on Fairey Battles and they were all but wiped out undertaking a couple of bombing raids on bridges very early in the German invasion of Belgium. Had Dunkirk not happened and Britain sued for peace, then German access to the British colonies might have had made the story in the east a little different. Fortunately we'll never know.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
                                              I think its a case where the myth is largely true. Something like 400,000 men saved with a huge effort from civilians. One guy apparently paddled a canoe. I'm not sure about that, though. Hard to keep a canoe right-side up in water that choppy.
                                              While civilian sailors did man the little ships, most were manned by Navy and Navy reserve personnel.

                                              One of the national myths is that Dunkirk, saw the end of the fighting for British land forces. It didn't, elements of a 2nd BEF were landed and evacuated from Le Havre. Large numbers of British servicemen and women were evacuated from Cherbourg, my step-mother's father among them. This was after he had failed to get out at St. Nazaire after the Lancastria sinking on the 17 June. The 51st Highland Division was captured at St. Valery on the 11/12 June. There is evidence to suggest some British stragglers got out as far south as Bordeaux.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Gus McCrae View Post
                                                The RAF was also busy further inland. In addition to that, there really wasn't much of an air force left. Dad was on Fairey Battles and they were all but wiped out undertaking a couple of bombing raids on bridges very early in the German invasion of Belgium. Had Dunkirk not happened and Britain sued for peace, then German access to the British colonies might have had made the story in the east a little different. Fortunately we'll never know.
                                                The BEF 'Air Component' and the AASF were wiped out, but those elements were tiny when compared to the RAF as a whole.

                                                Dowding refused to send reinforcements to France as he knew was was coming.

                                                The Luftwaffe fighter arm first encountered Spitfires during the evacuation and were shocked by its high performance. Some historians, the more popular ones, suggest that the Spitfire enabled the evacuation. Ignoring the French (and smaller) British rearguard and German high command discussions....

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Logan Mountstuart View Post
                                                  I saw this in 4K last night, which I can thoroughly recommend. I concur completely with the reviews above. A beautifully crafted and visual film, and Hans Zimmer is a confirmed genius Imho.

                                                  I have to admit that Dunkerque is a gaping hole in my Ww2 studies, but what confuses me is that the Germans didn't press their advantage harder having done all the hard work. Single Heinkels?

                                                  Was it that their forces were already stretched enough pushing to Paris? Or did they simply think that clearing the continent of a British presence was sufficient for the moment?

                                                  I can't help thinking that if they had really set their minds to it this could have been an absolute massacre.

                                                  I'm currently reading 'Blitzed' by Norman Ohler which is about the vast quantities of drugs the German forces (and civilians) consumed during the war. Very good btw. In answer to the above question, Ohler postulates that Blitzkreig and the incredible speed with which the Germans swept through France was more down to the fact that they were off their tits on meth (in pill form) which enabled them to not only keep going with minimal rest & food for up to 3 days at a time but made them feel invincible. They were crashing through defensive lines with a speed & disregard for their own lives that totally confused, disrupted and scared the allies. Who were still fighting WW1 at that point.

                                                  Apparently Rommel & Guderian (both also off their tits) were well off script and moving too fast for German High Command to control. The Generals were very dubious about whether or not a strike through the Ardennes would work (apparently Guderian convinced Hitler but not the others) and were amazed at how well it did. Ohler suggests that Hitler called the halt both to get control (I am the boss! This is MY war!) and for fear of counter attack. The troops were probably somewhat strung out by that point also.

                                                  Also, as others have pointed out, the RAF were much more effective in attacking the German advance than many thought at the time.

                                                  Ohler makes a strong case for the drug angle which he backs up with a lot of research. In the right dose & for a short time, the pills would seem to create a big advantage. Over the longer term they are counter productive and cause all sorts of mental & physical problems including psychosis. This is maybe part of the reason why the Germans committed so many atrocities.

                                                  Hitler's own drug use is also examined in detail. Meth (in pep pill form), cocaine (a common enough medical application of the time), opiods (some high grade German pharma concoctions) and what were effectively speedballs (mixtures of the uppers & downers). He makes Belushi look like a lightweight. Most of the detail comes from notes taken by Hitler's personal doctor (who was with Hitler virtually 24 hours a day for years) which, Ohler claims, have never been properly studied. He says that from 1941 and increasingly so after Russian reverses and the assassination attempt, Hitler was high most of the time.

                                                  I haven't finished it yet and maybe someone can debunk it, but it is a fascinating read. There is no doubt that Herr Walter White & comrades produced a veritable cornucopia of designer drugs in Nazi Germany, the descendants of which appear to be ravaging the USA right now.

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