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    Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
    From the O'Toole piece, a survey he looked at:



    Christ almighty. What is wrong with these people.

    Consider that, in 1998, citizens of the Republic of Ireland voted 94.4% in favour of amending the Irish constitution to remove the claim to the North. Because it was in the interest of peace.
    This most legitimate question (“What is wrong with these people?”) keeps coming back on here, and I can see why as it is mind-boggling. But it’s often asked by people who do not live (or work) in the UK and who do not see first-hand just how divided the UK has become in the last decade, and particularly since Brexit, so nearly 3 years if you include the pre-referendum campaign that firmly set the tone.

    As a quick preamble, I’ll leave out of my general point below the two following things, a) the fact that people have to get on with each other at work and in life to function and b) the fact that many people are lucky enough to be only marginally affected, or not at all, by what’s described below so they might never have really encountered such situations. What's below isn't of course the definitive treatise on social divisions in England, I’m sure you can pick holes in it, it’s only my take on things, and I must admit I’m lucky enough to be no longer affected by it personally although my wife is to a degree (works in retail for a multinational, so you get the picture: lots of fucking bullies & cheats who try to contaminate conscientious healthcare professionals, especially since the recession, staff shortages, shoestring budgets despite huge increase of work as prescriptions have doubled since 2010 and trebled since 2000, especially antidepressants, x3 since 2003, etc.) but this is not a personal moan, we are both in our 50s so undoubtedly privileged compared to the younger generation with regard to the points below.

    Every Western country I’m sure is pretty divided at the minute but the Tories have made sure that the UK would be the leader in the field, at least in Europe, possibly even more so than the US since 2016 as Brexit has added a massive extra dimension to the polarisation(s). The more you scratch the surface the more you see lots of little groups at loggerheads with each other.

    Divisionism (let’s call it that, but not that divisionism) is a dark art that I would liken to a social iceberg with a 50-50 split: there are plenty of tell-tale signs so it’s easy to see what sticks out, but also a big ominous chunk below the surface which ensures that divisions take on lots of insidious, “quietly oppressive” forms. How the UK workplace has become segregated for instance is very interesting in this respect, not just through the obvious ways (aggressive management, culture of target and fear, performance-related pay, generalised cheating and massaging of figures to meet objectives etc.) but also spatially.

    Take teaching for instance since the Tories took over but also encompassing a good portion of the Blair era, fragmentation has been achieved in such a comprehensive multi-layered way that it becomes hard to “fight the system” as you just don’t know who to trust and who to turn to (deregulation of structures and of the profession – academisation + marginalisation of Local Education Authorities + atomisation of the School Teachers Pay and Conditions & Burgundy Book, the two main sources of conditions of service for teachers, + intense competition between teachers and individualism due to performance-related pay + budget cuts etc. – means that teaching unions are weak and people scared of using them).

    The classic, unsubtle tenets of the Divide and Rule strategy are encapsulated in there, in the above paragraphs (eg how school staff evaluate each other through performance-related pay made far worse by massive budget cuts creating tension and injustice, or the policy of actively pitting young teaching staff agst older expendable ones – who are more expensive than their young colleagues and who often end up fucking off/retiring etc. leaving a very young and malleable workforce – eg, 13% of primary school teachers are under 30 in France vs about 33% in England & Wales) mixed with the “subtler” ways, such as how lots of schools these days have become spatially divided and compartmentalised, think of pens in a cattle mart for instance(especially big schools and the new ones).

    Schools without a staffroom for instance or with one but staff discouraged from using it, by making the area a no-man’s land or, more probably, by ensuring that staff are too busy to have more than a passing chat with colleagues. It’s not uncommon to visit schools and find that staff who have been there for years barely know who works in other departments just a few doors away, they know their names and faces (but not even sometimes) and email addresses maybe but they’ve never talked to them. You are constantly told as a teacher that sharing, teamwork and cross-departmental collaboration is vital (looks good for Ofsted to have that in the neat list of the school’s “core values”) yet plenty is done to discourage communication and exchange.

    Anish Mann, a physics teacher, recently left a school, part of a multi-academy trust, that had no staffroom. As a result, he says, he only got to know his department team, not the whole staff. He says: “I would see adults walking in the school and would challenge them on their ID. We all thought it was a divide and conquer situation. If you don’t let people talk to each other, they don’t share their grievances.”

    […]

    The move away from staffrooms can perhaps be traced to 2012, when amendments were made in England to the Education (School Premises) Regulations, taking away the need for teachers to be given a work and social space. The amendments do not apply in Wales. Five years later, many schools in England are choosing not to have a staffroom.
    Being very divided as a nation means that contradictions in what we want, who we think we are, how we think, how we intend to get there etc. are very common in people. Division, as masterfully engineered by the Tories, not only encourages the fragmentation of society in 1,001 different castes, or “pieces”, but also fosters misinformation, doubt, confusion, which often turns into frustration as people struggle to solve the puzzle of their own interrogations and quandaries. Many people become full of anger and disillusionment (that intersects with aspects of the so-called “Shit Life Syndrome”) and, as a result, that resentment becomes a decisive factor when making political choices. IMO, it explains why so many people end up shooting themselves in the foot at the ballot box. By fostering hostility, dog-eat-dogism and numbing the intellect, you often end up with a society of “Turkeys voting for Christmas” voters.
    Last edited by Pérou Flaquettes; 22-10-2018, 23:08.

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      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...k-1-7-trillion

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        Labour Leave are pretty much an astroturf group.

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          https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1054612611327819776

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            Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
            Labour Leave are pretty much an astroturf group.
            Slightly related, I could have done without the (astonishingly successful...) Britain Stronger in Europe folk bankrolling large parts of the People's Vote/OFOC/FFS campaign, whilst it also appearing to be a grassroots movement.

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              Dyson gives vote of confidence to Britain's Singapore-style future by building a car factory in, um, Singapore.

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                Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
                Dyson gives vote of confidence to Britain's Singapore-style future by building a car factory in, um, Singapore.
                https://twitter.com/kadhimshubber/status/1054696180528095232

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                  Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
                  Dyson gives vote of confidence to Britain's Singapore-style future by building a car factory in, um, Singapore.
                  Well, the hardcore do want a Singapore style UK, so there's scope for him to change his mind yet.

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                    There is another reason to favour Singapore, of course...

                    https://twitter.com/tradedealwatch/status/1054700865972563969

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                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                      Surgeons are the worst.

                      I'm insulated from most of her output by the ocean, but my take on LK is that she is the epitome of that toxic combination of both sidesism and a desperate need to be "relevant" that characterises much of contemporary media. I'm not sure that she really believes in anything other than herself.
                      Thanks for the reply. Probably a fair assessment.

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                        Now we just need a Single Market agreement.

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                          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                          Nearly 70% of Labour voters voted Remain.

                          IIRC, it was more than the Lib Dems. (Or SNP. One of them.) But easier to blame the Leave vote on the poor, thick racists of Burnley, Stoke and Darlington than examine the middle-class curtain twitching racism of Chipping Norton.
                          Quite. The Guardian’s John Harris’s Anywhere From Westminster series (clips on the Brexit vote) is interesting but it's ridiculously focused on the most deprived areas. Seems to me that a lot of the rich Tory Shires and the South East voted Leave (or were split 50-50 at any rate) but for some reason Harris never goes and ask the golf cart brigade and the minted zimmer-framers Leavers their reasons for voting Leave.

                          It’s always so much easier to demonise the poor and "uneducated", isn’t (FFS, any sixth-former donkey with pissy A Level grades can to "a" university these days since Labour turned higher education into a massive business, thus encouraging the proliferation of Mickey Mouse courses, so being "university educated" isn’t necessarily saying much).

                          Why is it so difficult for many Remainers to realise that Trump’s win is largely due to the "Deplorables" comments and shunning of whole swathes of the electorate by H. Clinton. Trump drew his ire & fire from that "us and them" strategy that, granted, he initiated but that the Democrats fell for big time and copied when they should have known better, and the same applies to the Brexit vote. (if Trump or anyone else wants to demonise "the elites" and quinoa-munching urbanites, let them but don’t play into their hands by adopting the same divisive tactics as it will backfire. Whoever was Clinton’s adviser in 2016 did a pretty crap job IMO – unless she’s one of those arrogant twats who listen to no-one because they always know best, that’s also a strong possible).

                          Most people have more in common that they often realise and want to admit to but will become (over)defensive and very entrenched in their views if led down that polarising path by politicians. There is nothing to gain from alienating the other side during a societal/political campaign such as Brexit or Trump. That’s not saying of course that we should try to understand and appease the racists, the doylums and terminally vile, it wouldn’t work anyway, but during a political campaign it’s best not to rise to the bait. A lot of the 52% are not necessarily xenophobic/racist (many were fence-sitters who were influenced by peer pressure, Facebook etc.) but those racists among the 52% led the pack and fed off the antagonistic, tribalistic atmosphere to sway and hook in the impressionable.

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                            Quite. The Guardian’s John Harris’s Anywhere From Westminster series (clips on the Brexit vote) is interesting but it's ridiculously focused on the most deprived areas. Seems to me that a lot of the rich Tory Shires and the South East voted Leave (or were split 50-50 at any rate) but for some reason Harris never goes and ask the golf cart brigade and the minted zimmer-framers Leavers their reasons for voting Leave.
                            The difference is that the golf club bores are well enough off to trade some of their wealth for "sovereignty". Plus their politicians are driving the way Brexit is done.

                            Obviously an area being deprived is part of it, but I expect when you look at it more closely, the pattern is like other places- Brexit pensioners. South Wales, for one, has a lot of pensioners. Nick Clegg, of all people, did a decent feature on Ebbw Vale and found the young people there were pro-EU.

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                              There must be well-off areas with lots of pensioners. Would be interesting to see how they voted- probably Leave, I would expect. Herefordshire is well-off and seems to have a lot of retirees. Voted 60% Leave.

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                                I live in one such constituency in Sussex. It resoundingly voted leave and it and it's predecessors have voted Tory in every election since the war.

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                                  I must confess I had a bit of a BOFH moment today. A guy opposite me at the client also went to the U2 gig last week. He wasn't happy that U2, I mean U2 of all the bands in the world should decide to make a political statement. I know. What a totally left field thing for the band who did "Pride", "Sunday Bloody Sunday" and all that to bring politics into it. (They displayed a big EU flag with a Union Jack and a heart drawn around it - Bono said "We've taken this show around Europe. And no-one out there wants you to Leave. And we don't either.")

                                  Or course, it wasn't that rock bands shouldn't dabble in politics ("And IT technicians should?") but more that free speech doesn't include saying things he doesn't like.

                                  So I mentally looked at some of his requests and moved them down a few notches in the priority queue.

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                                    More Wile E Coyote style contingency planning.

                                    Ferry and freight firms will be urged to plan alternative routes for drugs and other vital supplies if a no-deal Brexit blocks cross-Channel traffic.
                                    The suppliers will be told to use Belgian and Dutch ports if blockages at Calais threaten to delay shipments.

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                                      From Robert Peston's Facebook page:
                                      A shocked Cabinet was today told of Department of Transport contingency plans to own or lease roll-on roll-off lorry ferries to make sure vital supplies of goods and medicines continue to reach these shores if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

                                      According to work commissioned by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, a possible French decision to reintroduce customs checks could reduce freight coming into the UK via Dover and the Channel Tunnel by around 85%.

                                      So the UK would in those circumstances have to bring in vital imports to other ports such as the Port of London, Tilbury and Liverpool.

                                      The proposed scheme is called GOOL, or Government Owned or Operated Logistics.

                                      “It’s the kind of stuff governments do in a time of war” said one member of the cabinet. “It is as serious as that”.

                                      That said the best precedent for the plan was the creation by Clement Atlee’s Labour government in 1948 of the National Freight Corporation, which was originally known as British Road Services.

                                      In the case of GOOL, three options are being examined: buying ships, leasing them or converting military vessels.

                                      I am told the military option is thought to be the least viable.

                                      “This was the bombshell in a meeting that contained lots of dull stuff” said another minister.

                                      He added that perhaps it would be the “sobering moment” that showed colleagues why a no-deal Brexit would be “so damaging”.

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                                        Yeah but the French won't do that, because otherwise how will they get British jam?

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                                          Nice to frame it as their decision though.

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                                            http://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1055011779628199937?s=21

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                                              Quite. The Guardian’s John Harris’s Anywhere From Westminster series (clips on the Brexit vote) is interesting but it's ridiculously focused on the most deprived areas. Seems to me that a lot of the rich Tory Shires and the South East voted Leave (or were split 50-50 at any rate) but for some reason Harris never goes and ask the golf cart brigade and the minted zimmer-framers Leavers their reasons for voting Leave.

                                              It's almost as though the pro-brexit press have managed to spread this story in order to hamstring the Labour party, by putting all the focus on people who might be expected to vote for Labour, in much the same way that the story about trump's blue collar voters was used to hamper the Democrats essentially with concern trolling.

                                              Why is it so difficult for many Remainers to realise that Trump’s win is largely due to the "Deplorables" comments and shunning of whole swathes of the electorate by H. Clinton. Trump drew his ire & fire from that "us and them" strategy that, granted, he initiated but that the Democrats fell for big time and copied when they should have known better, and the same applies to the Brexit vote

                                              I don't get this. The Deplorables comment was a comment made by hilary clinton at a private event about the half of Donald Trumps supporters who couldn't be won over by the Democratic party because they were basically people who hated other people for who they were, in one of many different ways. The only thing that was inaccurate about that statement was that it was considerably more than half. If you voted for Donald Trump, having known everything there was publicly known about him, in the run up to the election, either you're Scum, or too fucking stupid to vote. There is no third option. And that includes a lot of my relatives, who have either lived too long, or are thick as pigshit. The Problem for the democrats wasn't that Trump got too many votes, it's that the Democrats didn't try hard enough to get people out to vote in a couple of states that they complacently expected to win.

                                              See I don't get the fucking point of that tweet about how it's primarily important to get rid of the tories. Yeah, sure the Tories are a fucking nightmare. But there is two months for the UK to agree to the backstop, or in five months time, there is going to be a humanitarian crisis in the UK, and a huge swathe of your economy is going to be wiped out. There is no longer time to play this waiting game while Jeremy Corbyn gradually unseats the tories through some mechanism that has yet to reveal itself. Unless there's an election called before the end of the week, then there isn't time. Even then, anyone making that point has a fuck mountain more faith in how Labour are going to deal with this situation, than most people. Certainly more than me.

                                              The Thing is that all along the Labour Brexit Policy as far as one can be discerned, is to offer a slightly more palatable version of Brexit. A slightly more reasonable Cake and eating it approach. It exists in a world where leaving the single market isn't going to obliterate the Tax base, wipe out the UK's exporting sectors, and push the UK's productivity figures down to developing world standards, leading to a wave of job losses and economic destruction, so much bigger than the one in the 80's, that it's even going to reach the centre of the City of London.

                                              It still seems to be talking about having a customs union with the EU, but being able to negotiate its own trade deals. It's a critique that exists in the same fucking fantasy world as the Tory Brexit Strategy. One that has always been ridiculously at odds with external reality. It's impossible for the labour party to point out all of the various fucking disasters that that the tories are going to walk the UK into, because they don't understand it either. it means that there's no means to drive a wedge into the Tory party and to force a split. There's nobody standing up in the house of commons right now pointing out at that if The tories don't agree to a backstop, then there's going to be a chaotic no deal, in five months time, and if they can't do it, they need to have an election so the UK can have a govt than can deal with this sort of issue.

                                              They're simply not holding them to account, either in the way that they can't find their own arse even if they use both hands, or they can't hold them to account when they diverge from reality. There's simply far too much of this "They should all trust Jeremy because Fucking Underpants gnomes."

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                                                I don't understand your last sentence, but regarding this 'There's nobody standing up in the house of commons right now pointing out at that if The tories don't agree to a backstop, then there's going to be a chaotic no deal, in five months time, and if they can't do it, they need to have an election so the UK can have a govt than can deal with this sort of issue.' iirc this is exactly what Corbyn and Starmer have been saying at pmq's and in the Commons for some time now.

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                                                  Now is too late.

                                                  They needed to vote against triggering Article 50 until a backstop plan was outlined.

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                                                    Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                                    Now is too late.

                                                    They needed to vote against triggering Article 50 until a backstop plan was outlined.
                                                    You forget the backstop was only formulated after Article 50, because the presumption was the UK would at least stay in a Customs Union, and abide by the regulations of the Single Market, but then the Lancaster House speech occurred.

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