The Brexit Thread

[Eggchaser]

Ha ha.

Is that another sighting of the sheriff from Blazing Saddles?

I'm edging towards you on the possibility they force themselves into a general election.

In Blazing Saddles, the sheriff was the smart one. Raab is Taggart, or possibly Lyle.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is it really the perception that it's a twee middle class issue, or is that what a load of men in pubs and Leave politicians say on telly?

Polls suggest Labour leavers are moving to Remain. That such middle class twee enclaves as Rhondda and Merthyr would now vote Remain.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Maybe some people in Rhondda like puns, I don't know.

[Nefertiti2]

Is it really the perception that it's a twee middle class issue, or is that what a load of men in pubs and Leave politicians say on telly?

Polls suggest Labour leavers are moving to Remain. That such middle class twee enclaves as Rhondda and Merthyr would now vote Remain.

I went on the march, Tubby and its on my observations there that my perception is based.

[Pérou Flaquettes]

I know plenty of people who didn't vote at the June ref because they "couldn't be arsed" or "didn't know enough about it", I even know 2 Millennials who didn’t vote because "they were too tired". I mean, how stultifyingly pathetic. These 2 twenty-somethings live in the sticks and voting involved a (short) drive, far too taxing after a night out. At least they were honest enough to fess up – to my wife, she works with them, nice enough youngsters too but totally disengaged. Well, it wasn’t even a confession and that’s what's most worrying, they were casual about it too, a la Lauren "Am I bovvered" Cooper (they do wish they’d voted now - Remain - but only because of things like the scrapping of free mobile roaming charges in Europe post Brexit).

The U30s and the prolelariat, the JAMS etc. (so, most people) really need to seriously engage and get stuck in now, it’s the only way to defeat these Tory vandals. We’re on the right track with Momentum and possibly other movements I’m not too sure but the young in particular need to seriously pull their fingers out of their arses on a big scale to counter the dismal narrative offered by the next generation of Tory looters (Raab, Truss, Williamson, Javid, Baker, Patel, Cleverly, Fernandes etc.) and the other Pied Pipers of gloom, otherwise the vandals will eat them alive.

Nef's general message is right here: this country and the unions in particular really need to wake up and smell the morbid stench. Instead of proudly banging on about the "Dunkirk spirit", people need to get into the "Poll Tax" spirit. I’ve gone on enough on OTF and the Education thread in particularly about how apathy has taken over and how it's slowly killing us so I won’t go over old grounds but yeah, industrial action, protesting, regularly taking to the streets, raising hell etc. is the only way forward against the Tories and this has to come primarily from the unions and the youth, and Labour.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I was talking about the issue, not the march. I take your point about the march. Not that I think an Ellesmere Port car worker sitting at home watched the news and thought "Look at those silly punning signs!"

[Nefertiti2]

Comment in the Spiegel

Almost everyone who has a say in Brexit belongs to the British establishment, meaning they went to an outrageously expensive private school and completed their studies at Cambridge or Oxford. In this regard, too, we have been enlightened. What in the name of God do they learn there?

[Pérou Flaquettes]

It's completely normal for the BBC's political correspondent Laura Kuenssberg to characterise the EU the democratic trade block (that the UK is still a member of) as an Empire.

Décidément, elle empire...

Do you, avid followers of this Brexit pantomime, get the feeling that Laura Kuenssberg has developed a split personality over Brexit of late? (possibly to better deflect accusations of siding with the Leave camp?). Like many of you I’m sure, I’ve heard her frame things in a pro-Brexit way since 2016 but on Brexitcast (Radio5 live) she comes across as a Remainer. My wife, who’s far more into Brexit than I am (she does worry about having to leave her parents behind should we go and live in Spain or France - although this issue is slowly being sorted out with her sister), wheedled me the other day while cooking into listening to a couple of Brexitcasts (with LK, Katya Adler and, I think, mainly Remainers) and she sounded pretty pro-Remain to me.

This story below is positively WTFesque.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8516996.html

A leading surgeon punched a fellow doctor on a night out after he became furious during an alcohol-fuelled discussion about BBC reporter Laura Kuenssberg, a tribunal heard. David Wilkinson MBE hit Lawrence King on the head and knocked off his spectacles as they and other medical colleagues were engaged in a ''vigorous debate'' over the political editor's ''lop-sided smile”.

[…]

Dr King allegedly suggesting she would look better ''with a bag over her head” – due to what he called her ''asymmetrical face''.

[…]

''Heated debates were happening around the group. We had a long debate about Brexit and this led to a conversation about Laura Kuenssberg. Someone said she was quite pretty and I mentioned that I didn’t agree. Lawrence said she would look better with a bag over her head, which annoyed David."

[Tubby Isaacs]

Nef's general message is right here: this country and the unions in particular really need to wake up and smell the morbid stench

I agree with that.

I was very struck by this.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...xit-referendum

The poll found that members of Unite, the country’s biggest union, and Labour’s largest financial backer, now support a referendum on the final Brexit deal by 59% to 33% and support staying in the EU by 61% to 35%. GMB’s members support putting the issue back to the people by 56% to 33% and its members want the UK to stay in the EU by 55% to 37%.

Unison members back another referendum by 66% to 22% and would opt to stay in the EU by 61% to 35%.

Union members think standards of living will deteriorate as a result of Brexit by a margin of around four to one (Unite members by 55% to 11%, Unison members by 61% to 16%, and GMB members by 49% to 11%).

They also believe Brexit will worsen, not improve, job opportunities (Unite members by 57% to 16%, Unison members by 52% to 27%, and GMB members by 43% to 18%).

I mean, with those numbers you'd have expected much more engagement yesterday, and generally.

[Nefertiti2]

Those numbers are quite dodgy. They say nothing about methodology but i believe Yougov uses people who are already registered with them.

But I saw little evidence that the marchers had a plan to engage with trade unionists -.some unions have a pro People’s Vote policy but I didn’t see any banners.

[Lang Spoon]

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/1...-of-the-1920s/

I thought this was quite good on The North, England and what may be unleashed.

[ursus arctos]

Surgeons are the worst.

I'm insulated from most of her output by the ocean, but my take on LK is that she is the epitome of that toxic combination of both sidesism and a desperate need to be "relevant" that characterises much of contemporary media. I'm not sure that she really believes in anything other than herself.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I take that point,Nef, but the bigger point I think is that some big trade unions don't seem up to it even if they're properly engaged by other people.

I thought Sunderland would vote Leave, but I thought you'd be able to look at the result and see some sign that it had a very large unionized employer dependent on the Single Market (not to the area getting EU structural funds). But 61% Leave was earth shattering. You can look at other places with nothing like a Nissan in them, and they were barely any different.

Partly I blame Nissan, but I blame Unite as well. My impression is that there's been too much Lexit bollocks near the top of some unions.

[Nefertiti2]

I take that point,Nef, but the bigger point I think is that some big trade unions don't seem up to it even if they're properly engaged by other people.

I thought Sunderland would vote Leave, but I thought you'd be able to look at the result and see some sign that it had a very large unionized employer dependent on the Single Market (not to the area getting EU structural funds). But 61% Leave was earth shattering. You can look at other places with nothing like a Nissan in them, and they were barely any different.

Partly I blame Nissan, but I blame Unite as well. My impression is that there's been too much Lexit bollocks near the top of some unions.

Trade Unions are (in theory anyway) democratic institutions. If a substantial majority exists on the lines that the YouGov poll claims then it would be possible to build support through members or branches. Some might be lexit controlled and would do their best to lock you out, but others would respond I'd have thought. Need to do the work though.

I'm only talking about what should be done now. If you want to fight the referendum all over again I'll raise you the incompetence and unlikeablity of David Cameron the laziness of Alan Johnson and the complete waste of space that was little Will Straw.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I liked what McDonnell said in that article too.

he went out of his way to praise the People’s Vote campaign, which he said had been very “constructive” and had made clear that its attempts to influence Labour policy should not be seen “as an attack on Jeremy Corbyn or positioning around the leadership. It should be a constructive debate and that is right.”

[Nefertiti2]

I hear Starmer and MacDonnell have a great deal of mutual respect.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Trade Unions are (in theory anyway) democratic institutions. If a substantial majority exists on the lines that the YouGov poll claims then it would be possible to build support through members or branches. Some might be lexit controlled and would do their best to lock you out, but others would respond I'd have thought. Need to do the work though.

I'm only talking about what should be done now. If you want to fight the referendum all over again I'll raise you the incompetence and unlikeablity of David Cameron the laziness of Alan Johnson and the complete waste of space that was little Will Straw.

I haven't said anything about "refighting the referendum". I mentioned it because what happened was relevant to now.

I talked about what I think should happen next- Labour supports the Single Market. I'd guess that would please lots of the marchers from yesterday. That can be done tmrw.

You talked about 2003 before. Well, some people involved very prominently with that are now leading the Labour Party. They've got all the trade union contacts you could want. And they're not up to it, because it involves looking again at their economic prejudices and analysis. It's not the fault of middle class marchers that they're in a void.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Andrew Murray is right in there in Labour with a campaigning brief. He's a Lexit goon. Labour's head of international trade is the same. As far as I know, there was no great popular groundswell that put them in these important jobs. People like them wouldn't have got jobs with the SNP.

I think you have to put a lot of blame on the leadership really. But I appreciate I've said all this before, more than once.

[Nefertiti2]

It the PEOPLE ON THE MARCH who need to build the links. If they are serious about fighting Brexit..

The Labour Party is trying to bring about, fight and win a general election.

LABOUR IS NOT THE PARTY OF GOVERNMENT. CURRENTLY A MINORITY CONSERVATIVE IS IN POWER, SUPPORTED BY THE FAR RIGHT DEMOCRATIC UNIONIST PARTY IN NOTHERN IRELAND.

hope that helps.

[Snake Plissken]

Andrew Murray is right in there in Labour with a campaigning brief. He's a Lexit goon. Labour's head of international trade is the same. As far as I know, there was no great popular groundswell that put them in these important jobs. People like them wouldn't have got jobs with the SNP.

I think you have to put a lot of blame on the leadership really. But I appreciate I've said all this before, more than once.

Well, if his MPs hadn't been so determined to get rid of him and coordinated their resignations in order to do so, maybe we would have different people in the jobs?

[Nefertiti2]

It struck me on the march that the fact that from the day after the referendum the Labour Party was preoccupied by a bitter internal battle after the serial resignations of Benn and co meant that the centre left was locked out of the debate and Brexit was entirely defined by the right and the far right.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Let's leave it there.

[Nefertiti2]

You selectively brought up the past to allocate blame.

I don't object to middle class people going on marches. (how could I? I shop in Waitrose too. )I object to people campaigning without political analysis or strategy and blaming Corbyn or the Labour Party for issues that are outwit their control.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Well, if his MPs hadn't been so determined to get rid of him and coordinated their resignations in order to do so, maybe we would have different people in the jobs?

There's no shortage of Remain/Soft Brexiters who would give Corbyn their wholehearted support.

[Fussbudget]

Bizarre dichotomy between "the people on the march" and "trade unionists". If there were 700,000 people on the march I would imagine many of them are trade unionists, banners or not. They might not agree with their unions' leadership on Brexit though.