The Brexit Thread

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

He was on the BBC politicis show in the morning to engage in a spot of pointless internal fratricide with a member of a labour party group that was protesting against brexit at Corbstock, or Jezzapalooza or whatever it was called. They were saying that 80% of labour party members were in favour of a second referendum, and they represented the majority opnion on this matter, and he was calling them an astro turf organization because of who they shared space with in Millbank.

I didn't like the smug ad hominem nature of his arguments. they made him look sinister. It would be as though the other person was suggesting that he shouldn't be listened to because he'd worn a t-shirt that made his biceps look bigger than his head.

[E10 Rifle]

Bastani can be annoying, but he and people more articulate than him do have a case in making the point that the tactics of hardcore Remainers, by aiming so much ire at people on their own side and by berating the very people they need to win over as stupid, are being politically and tactically clueless. Has a political campaign ever succeeded by loudly bellowing at people that they're idiots, while accusing half the people on its own side as being traitors? It's precisely the sort of with-us-or-against-us fundamentalism these people would associate with the Hard Left tactics they say they despise.

If a second referendum happened now, there's a very real risk it would be lost again, and the consequences of that would be even worse than the first one. I wish I trusted Remain's leading lights to run a better campaign than they did it in 2016, but the evidence of the past two years suggests the opposite.

[Snake Plissken]

The group he was having a go at were Our Future, Our Choice who have spent about 90% of their time attacking Corbyn (and bizarrely Diane Abbott) over Brexit and not the Government. I posted one of their tweets on the last page.

They seem to be a set of useful idiots for the anti-Corbyn wing of Labour who don’t want to get their hands dirty.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour's big problem in 2015 was that the only group of MPs capable of offering anything new came with donkeys years worth of "Eurosceptic" bollocks. And given that the big selling point of Corbyn in 2015 was that he had consistent principles, you don't have to be a Blairite wrecker to see a problem with where we are now.

Remain wouldn't win a second referendum.

[E10 Rifle]

Then why are people demonstrating for one?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I don't agree with them, but they do an outriding job. Referendum on leaving with No Deal might fly, I suppose.

[E10 Rifle]

I'd be in favour of that - one, because we've been sold a pup and there are questions about whether rules were broken in the first one; and second, because, politically, something like this can only be unstitched the same way it was stitched.

Which means the task now is to persuade people to vote differently, rather than loudly call them idiots, and show some comprehension of where you went wrong the first time.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Bastani can be annoying, but he and people more articulate than him do have a case in making the point that the tactics of hardcore Remainers, by aiming so much ire at people on their own side and by berating the very people they need to win over as stupid, are being politically and tactically clueless. Has a political campaign ever succeeded by loudly bellowing at people that they're idiots, while accusing half the people on its own side as being traitors? It's precisely the sort of with-us-or-against-us fundamentalism these people would associate with the Hard Left tactics they say they despise.

If a second referendum happened now, there's a very real risk it would be lost again, and the consequences of that would be even worse than the first one. I wish I trusted Remain's leading lights to run a better campaign than they did it in 2016, but the evidence of the past two years suggests the opposite.

I've got to say that watching the exchange on the TV this morning I found myself pondering, how long would I last in an argument with him before saying "If you were half as clever as you think you are, you'd know you're a twat." The thing is that there simply seems to be no end of this type of operator at the moment. In all the little factions. The remainers you're complaining about share a lot in common with what I saw this morning.

I must admit that I have similar doubts about the prospects for a second referendum, in no small part because of the parlous state of British politics. It's difficult to watch much of the house of commons without thinking that we're looking at a dearth of talent not seen in the Uk since the early years of the premier league. I've never thought that the people who ran the remain campaign had a clearer idea of what the EU actually does than the Leave Campaign, Also you'd need an awful lot of people to admit that they were wrong the last time around. People don't like to do that.

I don't think that even brexit failing hard would change a lot of people's minds. I'm becoming increasingly worried about what is going to happen.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Oh, and Jean Claude Juncker was in town, telling us that we needed to prepare for a no deal hard brexit. People are giving up on the UK's ability to get their shit together.

[ad hoc]

Some good fruit picking opportunities for aircraft engineers

[Guy Profumo]

Some good fruit picking opportunities for aircraft engineers

It was Cardiff and Cardiff alone that voted "remain" in Wales, wasn't it?

[Patrick Thistle]

When was the referendum? I've had a Facebook memories post come up of a Leave leaflet. It's almost the 2 year anniversary, isn't it.

[E10 Rifle]

It was Cardiff and Cardiff alone that voted "remain" in Wales, wasn't it?

I hate this way of dicing up the referendum results. People all over Wales voted Remain, people all over Wales voted Leave, in slightly bigger numbers. Nowhere was 100% one way or the other. More people voted Remain in Stoke than go and watch Stoke City. You could fill the Liberty Stadium three times over with the number of Remainers in Swansea. More people voted Leave in London than voted for Sadiq Khan to be mayor.

Sorry for the rant, but it's a personal bugbear of mine that entire areas are now getting written off and typecast as one thing or another based on often quite marginal results. It's also dangerous and hampers the efforts to repair this mess.

[N est à?]

And in point of fact, that isn't true about Cardiff/Wales- Ceredigon and at least a couple if others were Remain areas. But what E10 says.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire voted Remain.

[Guy Profumo]

Cheers!

[E10 Rifle]

Swansea was 58,000 remain v 61,000 leave, but yeah let's call the entire population of the city bigoted backward cunts who deserve everything that's coming to them. That'll help.

(This isn't aimed particularly at anyone on here BTW, but dear Lord do you come across this attitude elsewhere)

[Gangster Octopus]

When was the referendum? I've had a Facebook memories post come up of a Leave leaflet. It's almost the 2 year anniversary, isn't it.

It was on my 59th birthday.

[Guy Profumo]

Swansea was 58,000 remain v 61,000 leave, but yeah let's call the entire population of the city bigoted backward cunts who deserve everything that's coming to them. That'll help.

(This isn't aimed particularly at anyone on here BTW, but dear Lord do you come across this attitude elsewhere)

I've no problem if you aim that at the parts of Sheffield (or anywhere else for that matter) with UKIP councillors though.

[N est à?]

When I call Swansea people that it isn't anything to do with the referendum, ho ho

[N est à?]

I can say that, right, because my nan was one

[N est à?]

(From swansea, not a bigoted, backward etc)

[Duncan Gardner]

I'd be in favour of that - one, because we've been sold a pup and there are questions about whether rules were broken in the first one; and second, because, politically, something like this can only be unstitched the same way it was stitched...Which means the task now is to persuade people to vote differently, rather than loudly call them idiots, and show some comprehension of where you went wrong the first time

Isn't that a more elegant way of saying 'keep asking broadly the same question until you get the different/ 'correct' answer?

52% (or whatever figure you pull from the ether) aren't idiotic, but they are poorly informed. About the electoral system, or how often a Nissan Micra shunts between Sunderland and Slovakia, or a thousand things in between.

I was skim-reading Michael Ashcroft's latest detailed poll last night (slightly less gloomy than watching Argentina fans moaning). Even allowing for the failings of the polling industry (seen starkly in Dublin last month), it seems fairly likely that the Remain/ Renegotiate side would lose more comfortably in a future referendum

[Tubby Isaacs]

Oh, Pontypridd constituency voted Remain, though its borough voted Leave. Maybe a couple more like that.

[E10 Rifle]

I like the fact that you've posted that in a Nessa-from-Gavin-and-Stacey style