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    Starmer's on radio 4 in a few minutes.

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      Labour has been for an EFTA type arrangement all along and they are clearly edging towards it.

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        And this is why I think none of Tubby's points about car manufacturing or the EMA will make any difference whatsoever.
        “Half-Time in the Brexit Negotiations: The Voters’ Scorecard” is published just over half-way in between the date of the EU referendum and the date the UK is due to leave the EU – 29 March 2019. 2200 people took part in the most recent survey, carried out just after the election in July, and in October when negotiations were underway.
        Findings (Source: NatCen)
        52% now think Britain will get a bad deal, up from 37% in February
        61% now say the UK government is handling the negotiations badly, up from 41% in February
        57% say the EU is handling the negotiations badly, up from 47% in February
        The proportion of Leave voters who think the UK will secure a good deal out of Brexit has fallen from 51% on February to 28%
        21% of Leave voters think the UK government has handled the Brexit negotiations well, down from 42% in February
        Nevertheless, according to the research, which was funded by the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC), the balance of public opinion on what kind of Brexit the UK should be seeking has not changed markedly during the course of this year.
        64% still think that ‘people from the EU who want to come to live here’ should have ‘to apply to do so in the same way as people from outside the EU’, only slightly down on the 68% who backed this provision in February.
        Above all, at 53%, the proportion who think we should ‘definitely’ or ‘probably’ allow freedom of movement for EU citizens in return for securing free trade with the EU is no higher than the 54% who expressed that view in February.

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          Above all, at 53%, the proportion who think we should ‘definitely’ or ‘probably’ allow freedom of movement for EU citizens in return for securing free trade with the EU is no higher than the 54% who expressed that view in February.
          That's still more than voted for Brexit and therefore should be absolute policy, by the same belligerent standards.

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            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
            well.... if the institutions are shut down, rather than suspended, you don't go to direct rule from london, you move to direct rule in consultation with the Irish Govt, through the British Irish intergovernmental council. Now that was built into the good friday agreement as the suicide pill to stop the Unionists from wrecking the institutions. I don't know if the DUP are aware of this. Now this institution is nebulous as things stand, and depends very much on the UK govt defining it, so lets just consider what happens if This govt collapses? Suddenly the DUP are reliant on Sinn Fein to save the institutions, or they are faced with the prospect of having Jeremy Corbyn defining the role of the Irish Govt in the running of Northern Ireland
            Yes, the North- South and East- West parts of the GFA are 'nebulous' (or effectively non-existent as I'e said). Your idea of JC taking a time machine back to 1983 and making UI his first priority as PM is a tad fanciful.

            Spoony- ta for the FDI hint. I kept thinking of Roosevelt as had heard Eleanor on the radio yesterday.

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              In the latest episode of Beyond Parody:

              David Davis written statement to Parliament 7 November: "The sectoral analysis is a wide mix of qualitative and quantitative analysis contained in a range of documents"

              David Davis today: No impact assessments have been done on the impact of Brexit on UK economy


              and stay tuned for:

              Jacob Rees Mogg suggests the Govt actually exceeded the demands of MPs' motion calling for Brexit impact assessments to be handed over because instead of simply saying they do not exist ministers tried to handover something similar.

              David Davis: "Technically, yes."

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                Originally posted by Ginger Yellow View Post
                And this is why I think none of Tubby's points about car manufacturing or the EMA will make any difference whatsoever.
                Yeah probably.

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                  Many people seem to only vote based on economic factors after they have affected them - the horse has bolted - whereas on immigration they vote based on scares and fabrications. Democracy is fucked with that mindset.

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                    It also depends how the question is phrased. For example, “Would it be fair for EU residents to be subject to the same immigration procedures as non-EU residents?” is likely to be answered in the affirmative.

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                      I'm not really understanding all the headlines and MP outrage this morning about Davis's comments. He's always said there were no impact assessments. He said it last time he was before the committee, before the motion was voted on. Probably the time before that. That's in part how they got away with not showing parliament anything until now. They said there wasn't anything coherent to show, just some analytical work that had been done. Moreover, it's not like the government ever said they pulled the trigger because they decided the economics made sense. It's all "will of the people" and "Brexit means Brexit" bollocks.

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                        But can you trust Davis now? Maybe the assessments were so horrific he (or someone lower down the food chain) will lie like a rug to stop them seeing the light of day.

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                          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                          Labour has been for an EFTA type arrangement all along and they are clearly edging towards it.
                          Watch out for your hand, because I might just bite it off.

                          I think that's Labour's private position, and hope they're more confident now.

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                            It's not really a question of trusting him. The line has always been there are no impact assessments, and they didn't want to hand over what reports there were. I understand the complaints about that. But now there's a whole new batch of outrage that the reports they handed over weren't impact assessments. Why did you think they would be, when they said all along they wouldn't be?

                            I mean, it's not hard to believe the government and DxEU in particular were cavalier about this, surely. It's not like anything Brexit related has been done in a considered, thoughtful manner.

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                              Didn't Davis talk like there was lots of detail? A couple of times, at least.
                              Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 06-12-2017, 15:04.

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                                On occasion, yes. And there is! 800 pages of it. He never said it was original detail. The closest thing I can find for people to complain about being misled is Hammond's mention of an economic model for Brexit to the Treasury select committee. But Davis said it wasn't part of the sectoral analyses the very next day, and anyway a model isn't an impact assessment, because the outputs depend on the inputs you choose and the assumptions inherent in the model. Nobody ever said these had been analysed in a definitive way, as opposed to Treasury playing around with to test various scenarios.

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                                  Like I say, by all means get pissed off at the government for being reckless and not doing serious impact assessments before the Article 50 letter, but as I've said repeatedly, the time to get pissed off about that was before voting for Article 50!

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                                    As with the DUP stuff, this stuff is bad and important, but talks breaking down and Hard Brexit are catastrophic. Davis and the DUP have distracted from that.

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                                      Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                      Watch out for your hand, because I might just bite it off.

                                      I think that's Labour's private position, and hope they're more confident now.
                                      The symbolic EU exit. Give up influence in Brussels in exchange for nothing.

                                      Not damaging for the economy, but still stupid as shit when compared to just calling this whole charade off.

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                                        When even Laura Kuenssberg is eviscerating the Tories in a thread, it highlights their sheer incompetence:

                                        https://mobile.twitter.com/bbclaurak...27028365369344

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                                          Originally posted by antoine polus View Post
                                          The symbolic EU exit. Give up influence in Brussels in exchange for nothing.

                                          Not damaging for the economy, but still stupid as shit when compared to just calling this whole charade off.
                                          Not stupid when you're stuck with the sodding referendum result. Otherwise, yes.

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                                            And Varadkar perfectly willing to pause talks until New Year, if required:

                                            https://mobile.twitter.com/gavreilly...01451449225217

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                                              Good move. Genuinely flexible, and we'll have another month to shit ourselves.

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                                                Meanwhile. Another reminder of the fools who scared brave Mr Cameron.

                                                Douglas Carswell

                                                @DouglasCarswell
                                                EU’s real agenda has nothing to do with Ireland or Irish border. It’s about curbing extent to which UK diverges in regulatory terms after we leave
                                                08:45 - 6 Dec 2017
                                                That's the solution to the Irish Border. Moaning amateur psychology.

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                                                  Intriguing GFA motion by Lady Hermon:

                                                  https://publications.parliament.uk/p..._1205.1-7.html

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                                                    The loonies have their tales up. This is an incredibly dangerous time, even by Brexit standards.

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