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    In reply to Tubby's earlier post, the MP next to my ward (and ardent pusher of the Peoples Vote, as he was a couple of years ago with Angela Eagle for leader), Peter Kyle, liked Blair's intervention.

    We could do with some clarity from the PV folk about what they're aiming for. This thread outlines some of the options, and relative difficulties.

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      At the risk of talking about Labour too much, is the position still that the May deal needs to voted down before anything else? That vote is in January now. That's a worry.

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        Originally posted by johnr View Post
        In reply to Tubby's earlier post, the MP next to my ward (and ardent pusher of the Peoples Vote, as he was a couple of years ago with Angela Eagle for leader), Peter Kyle, liked Blair's intervention.

        We could do with some clarity from the PV folk about what they're aiming for. This thread outlines some of the options, and relative difficulties.
        They've been trying to get broad support on the principle of a vote accepted first without falling out on what the vote is on exactly. It's had some success, but it maybe too late as May dodges for another month. I think I'd have rather had a strong Single Market campaign going on first, then see where that got.

        Kyle sounds unimpressive. There are good and bad "sensibles" on Brexit. I thought representing Hove he'd not be bothering with freedom of movement unicorns. Same with those who tried to make out the EEA had FoM-control options, though at leastthat seems to have dropped out of sight.

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          Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
          At the risk of talking about Labour too much, is the position still that the May deal needs to voted down before anything else? That vote is in January now. That's a worry.
          A second referendum can’t happen before March 29th. Defeating that deal pretty much the last hope for... something.

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            Without the 27 agreeing an extension, it looks like it could be too late.

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              Well, they could revoke with a view to restarting the process. No doubt that would be a popular move.

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                And as if by magic, the Peoples Vote concentrate on Labour again.

                https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1074029710990950400

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                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                  A second referendum can’t happen before March 29th. Defeating that deal pretty much the last hope for... something.
                  It makes sense for the second referendum to be held when the economic effects are kicking in and people can see in their own lives that Brexit is a disaster. However, that also means accepting that many people's lives are going to be seriously fucked, possibly permanently, before anything can be done to stop further damage.

                  OTOH could Labour agree to support the May deal but ONLY on condition that a second referendum is held ASAP?

                  The People's Vote poll looks like a piece of garbage: a loaded question that the respondents didn't really understand.
                  Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 15-12-2018, 21:19.

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                    It's possible we'll reach a point where eggs are getting broken either way, so why not make that omelette. Until then I think they have to try anything they can to prevent a disaster.

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                      Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                      The People's Vote poll looks like a piece of garbage: a loaded question that the respondents didn't really understand.
                      Yeah, there's no way the Lib Dems, even without a leader theologizing about gay sex, are going past Labour.

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                        If the choice was between no Brexit at all but the Tories remaining in power and Brexit of some kind but the Conservatives losing control how would people here cast their votes?

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                          Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                          It makes sense for the second referendum to be held when the economic effects are kicking in and people can see in their own lives that Brexit is a disaster. However, that also means accepting that many people's lives are going to be seriously fucked, possibly permanently, before anything can be done to stop further damage.

                          OTOH could Labour agree to support the May deal but ONLY on condition that a second referendum is held ASAP?.
                          You think Labour would trust someone who has had to be dragged kicking and screaming before Parliament before she would admit anything more important than what she had for breakfast?

                          She’s also stabbed her own MPs in the back, even her Cabinet ministers. (Last week sending them out onto radio and telly to say the vote was definitely going ahead while in the middle of pulling it off the table.)

                          The only was a second referendum would happen is a revocation of A50. She has said she would not do that. Now obviously that is not worth the paper it is written on but May has decided she will deliver Brexit and god knows how stubborn she is. Revoking A50 for a second referendum would endanger that and she clearly finds it unacceptable.

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                            Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                            If the choice was between no Brexit at all but the Tories remaining in power and Brexit of some kind but the Conservatives losing control how would people here cast their votes?
                            Stop Brexit, obviously. That's going to fuck us up for 50 years. We can get the Tories at the next election.

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                              The fundamental problem with Brexit is that the leave vote was a very wide coalition of vested single interests, and as is now apparent no-one was voting "for" anything new that could actually work. You had people voting "to stop EU migration" who forgot that Ireland is an EU country with whom we have a separate freedom of movement arrangement. People who wanted to end EU "imposed" laws regulations and treaties without any credible plan for how to replace those with UK ones. People voting because they believed Boris's bus, with no understanding of how costly a no deal Brexit, and ending freedom of movement, would actually be to the economy and the NHS. And so now we have the impossible task of pretending there's a deal to satisfy all those entrenched interests at no cost to each other. Any fool can see that's impossible. It's worse than Hugo Rifkind's cheese submarine; it's a PM attempting to promise a room full of Liverpool, Man United and Spurs fans that she's going to come back with a plan that means they can all win the Champions League this year.
                              Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 16-12-2018, 09:42.

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                                https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1074231406807506946

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                                  Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                                  You had people voting "to stop EU migration" who forgot that Ireland is an EU country with whom we have a separate freedom of movement arrangement.
                                  Not sure 'forgot' is the right word there. Didn't know, and once they found out didn't care a bean. They think Ireland should do what it's told.
                                  The reality is Ireland is telling Britain what it can and can't do. Which is rather funny, actually.

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                                    It is funny. And, if Brexit goes ahead, we'll be able to look forward to countries like India queuing up for their turn to tell us what to do.

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                                      Originally posted by SouthdownRebel View Post
                                      It is funny. And, if Brexit goes ahead, we'll be able to look forward to countries like India queuing up for their turn to tell us what to do.
                                      We’ve already been told, more visas for Indians and more access to the UK market for Indian farmers or no deal. Notice how the Empire 2.0 talk has disappeared?

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                                        We were one of the obstacles to an EU with India, because we worried about Indians with visas. Doubtless a certain politician with the initials Theresa May was strongly opposed.

                                        Latest poll doesn't show the Tories paying any price for their antics (and having some of their least likable politicians on telly a lot), and they did perfectly OK in this week's council by-elections. Confidence can collapse quickly, but if a general election even happens, are we going to be much better off re Brexit than now? I'm scared.

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                                          Best hope on Brexit is probably a bunch of us driving up Whitehall in tanks and taking over.

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                                            Well, if there are valid reasons why another referendum is a risk (I tend to think there are), they surely apply to an election as well. The best option is for our politicians, collectively, to grow the hell up very quickly indeed.

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                                              Certainly risks in a referendum. Could the government pursue Remain or even the Single Market if there was mass abstention by Brexiters?

                                              Me and you in a tank is genuinely the best option.

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                                                I think that phrasing a question that would get an accurate response, fair to all parties, would be extremely difficult

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                                                  The best chance of minimising the risk of a second referendum would be only where remain was not on the ballot, which would still serve to alienate half the population. As for the options, it would something like hard Brexit and not a hard Brexit, which still leaves us up-in-the-air over the future. The one possible advantage of such a vote would be discarding the hard option. But we'd still be at the mercy of a political class that seems incapable of advancing any workable solution.

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                                                    Cameron's stature grows by the day.

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