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    Unless May succeeds in forcing her deal through, I suspect it will boil down to a choice between no deal or revoke until we sort ourselves out. Neither referendum or election will resolve the debate, unless we can reach a point where the result is overwhelming, which is not likely to happen quickly.

    It cannot be understated how much trouble the UK has brought upon itself. Whatever path is eventually taken results in mass anger among the populace, and I think it's almost certain this process ends in violence.

    Speaking with a colleague during the week, we were in agreement that unless the next few months are handled with a sensitivity that our politicians show no signs of developing, Brexit could end up being Britain's equivalent to the Treaty of Versailles. The increasing references to the likely emergence of a stab in the back myth among respected commentators is alarming.

    We also agreed it's now beyond doubt that the Westminster system is not fit for purpose. Whatever happens, a serious and non-partisan reconstruction of our politics is required.

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      We and the next generation are going to have to pay for the stupidity of Cameron's gamble. His failure to consider the possibility of what happens when you offer a referendum with binary options. No matter who won there was going to be massive divisions afterwards. It its means splitting his party and even the union that his reputation as the worst prime minister will be assured. I will reluctantly take a soft Brexit if the means we advert the rise of European style far-right populism. That is the best we can hope for at the moment?

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        Nick Cohen has written that column again.

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          It’s a bit more deluded than normal. The technique of applying opinions to people there’s no evidence they hold Has proved very popular with some

          A children’s author

          https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1074252575950680064?s=21

          A National newsreader

          https://twitter.com/alstewitn/status/1074318463991197696?s=21

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            "A children's author". I'll remember that one for Michael Rosen.

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              I find that Nick Cohen column rather persuasive. His thesis is plausible, to put it mildly, given the personalities involved.

              Edit: in particular, the appointment of Stalin-apologist - let's just dwell on that for a moment - Stalin apologiist - Andrew Murray (a Stalin apologist) to a key role in Corbyn's team means that it is very difficult to discount any tales of machiavellian and malevolent hard left extremism in his outlook,
              Last edited by Evariste Euler Gauss; 16-12-2018, 19:56.

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                Well..... the problem is that there are two possible explanations for the Labour party's approach to brexit. That they either don't vaguely understand the link between single market membership and tax receipts, and simply don't understand how the European Union works, and how it is likely to react. in essence they don't know that Even a soft brexit is going to tear the heart out of the UK economy, or that a no-deal brexit, even for a short period of time, is going to lead to an economic war that is going to burn your whole economy to the ground. The other alternative is that they are the disaster socialists outlined in that article.

                The thing is that they have had plenty of warning. so it's harder to hold to position no.1. If the UK stumbles out of the EU without settling their bill, guaranteeing rights for EU migrants, and tearing up the backstop, then the EU is pretty quickly going to set about promptly hammering your economy into the ground. This is going to be a significant emotional event in UK politics, and it is going to have serious and profound effects. Now this is more likely to manifest itself in violent fascism than a flowering of socialism, so it's not even going to have that outcome. It's reaching the point where I too am strongly starting to no longer think that they are just acting stupidly because they are trapped in the English political bubble, but instead that they are stupid people with a bad plan.
                Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 16-12-2018, 19:56.

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                  I thought it would appeal to you, EEG.

                  interesting how much there has been about Corbyn this weekend

                  https://twitter.com/ioanmarcjones/status/1074275820196245504

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                    Originally posted by Evariste Euler Gauss View Post
                    I find that Nick Cohen column rather persuasive. His thesis is plausible, to put it mildly, given the personalities involved.

                    Edit: in particular, the appointment of Stalin-apologist - let's just dwell on that for a moment - Stalin apologiist - Andrew Murray (a Stalin apologist) to a key role in Corbyn's team means that it is very difficult to discount any tales of machiavellian and malevolent hard left extremism in his outlook,
                    Cohen's a bore but I think Francis Beckett (not exactly a Blairite) backs up some of what he says (and says)

                    Obviously, there's a much wider movement associated with Corbyn and indeed in his close team- Andrew Fisher is apparently admirable. But why are people like Murray and Milne in there at all? It's not like they were carried in by a groundswell of members. There's another bloke who's name I can't remember previously at War on Want who is a Lexiter who's been handpicked for the top trade adviser job. Again, why?

                    There's stuff to make people like us worry.

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                      Regular reminder to our Cambridge and Cahir readers. The Labour Party is not in government.

                      on the day after the Referendum the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn offered to guarantee the rights of EU citizens here

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                        https://twitter.com/dsquareddigest/status/1074394644346224640

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                          Actually, after a few years of not seeing the light, I now agree with Nick and the posters above that Brexit really is all Corbyn's fault; he wasn't really campaigning for Remain, and at anytime since, he could have stopped Brexit just by doing, well, something (as yet unspecified.) He really does want to see people impoverished, it's been his life's work. Clear as day.

                          Nick Cohen isn't a warmonger, nor a misogynist, nor somebody who has completely misread the last 3 years of the Labour Party, repeatedly, nor indeed somebody who loves a good smear. He's a very acute political analyst.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                            Regular reminder to our Cambridge and Cahir readers. The Labour Party is not in government.

                            on the day after the Referendum the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn offered to guarantee the rights of EU citizens here
                            Fine. But they are the only side who can do anything, or change direction. The Tories are utterly fucked by this. Labour said that they would deliver Brexit in their manifesto. Now this deal that Theresa May has got is exactly the same withdrawal agreement that the Labour party would have achieved. It even ties you into the customs union as a bonus. Either they vote in favour of this deal, or they demand a second referendum. Anything else is walking the UK straight into rogue nation status.

                            Comment


                              Nick Cohen a few years ago

                              https://twitter.com/visitingmartian/status/1067360210463936513?s=21

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                Either they vote in favour of this deal, or they demand a second referendum. Anything else is walking the UK straight into rogue nation status.
                                If Labour demanded a second referendum without going through the processes that were agreed at Conference - that's 'agreed at Conference' by a composite drafted by about 30 people, and which was passed without much opposition - it would a) go against everything that both 'sides' in Labour agreed, and b) give May the opportunity to get the support that she needs to push the deal through without a pause, and then carry on fucking the country up till at least 2022.

                                'All options remain on the table' will probably end up being 'calling for a second referendum'*, but to do it now would split Labour in two, and get no closer to ending/amending this shitshow anyway. So it's pointless.

                                Sorry, I seem to have argued against my earlier conversion to the 'Brexit is all Corbyn's fault, and he can just stop it' opinion.

                                * As far as I can see, it's possible to delay A50 (and, if it's not, then that's the second referendum out of the window anyway); get a GE, get the fuckers out, with a manifesto commitment to negotiate whatever has to be negotiated/taken off the shelf, but then put that to a second referendum, 'Remain or leave with this deal' (and if that does come out as similar to May's, then nothing lost or gained re Brexit, and the Tories are out). Though I fucking hate referenda.

                                Comment


                                  I think we can all get firmly behind the idea that Nick Cohen is a massive gobshite. But is the stopped clock happening to tell the right time this time?

                                  Comment


                                    No. He just wants to attack Corbyn, as usual. But much of that article- as in all his articles- is specious nonsense.


                                    If anyone were seriously trying to campaign to win a 2nd referendum (and the only people I can see with the energy and nous to do that are Momentum) this is much more the line that needs to be taken IMO

                                    https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/964424090432946176
                                    Last edited by Nefertiti2; 16-12-2018, 21:28.

                                    Comment


                                      Johnr, You should take the EU at their word. There is going to be no renegotiating of this Withdrawal deal. This is what it was always going to be, with the Customs union Bonus. this is exactly what the Withdrawal agreement would have looked like if Labour won the 2017 election. This is the deal. Theresa May is telling the whole and clear truth for the first time in her life. There are three choices on the Table. This deal, No deal, or No brexit. Labour is opposed to This Deal and no deal. There is nothing else on the table. They should fucking get on with it.

                                      Comment


                                        this is the deal for people with Theresa May's red lines and people who were as offensive as Theresa May was. There were different draft interpretation of the document ready for May until she went to Brussels

                                        Comment


                                          Oh God no. this is the withdrawal agreement. This is where you jump through all the hoops that the EU requires you to, to leave in good standing with the EU. labour would have to pay the same money. Labour would have to guarantee EU residents rights. Labour would need to sign up to the Backstop. It doesn't matter who is in charge. The bit where your Red lines matters is the next set of negotiations. If you can't accept this deal, then it's second referendum time.

                                          The EU literally couldn't give two shits about what the UK govt says or does in these negotiations, as long as they jump through those hoops in a timely fashion.
                                          Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 16-12-2018, 21:45.

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                                            Labour isn't supporting the Single Market. If it was, it would say so. If it doesn't, it's stuck with something like May has got.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                              Johnr, You should take the EU at their word. There is going to be no renegotiating of this Withdrawal deal. This is what it was always going to be, with the Customs union Bonus. this is exactly what the Withdrawal agreement would have looked like if Labour won the 2017 election. This is the deal. Theresa May is telling the whole and clear truth for the first time in her life. There are three choices on the Table. This deal, No deal, or No brexit. Labour is opposed to This Deal and no deal. There is nothing else on the table. They should fucking get on with it.
                                              I agree with a lot of that, but maybe I wasn't clear with what you are responding to. If this deal is the only deal, and Labour's would be the same, and as A50 can be delayed, then there is no reason to get on with it (for the moment, disrearding the conference motion - which is, you know, important) whilst leaving the tories in power. They can use it to get them out.

                                              All that said, I do have some conflict; if Labour did vote for the deal, then the DUP drop their confidence and supply, and we go for a vote of no confidence. So there is that. (Though, conflicting again, depending on what May says tomorrow, there's a chance that the DUP go early. If so, all good.)

                                              Comment


                                                Why would each and every member of the 27 agree to a delay on that basis?

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                                  Now this deal that Theresa May has got is exactly the same withdrawal agreement that the Labour party would have achieved.
                                                  Of all the shit you've written about this subject, this is the most... recent.

                                                  May has her red line of NO FORRINS. Corbyn guaranteed the rights of EU citizens the day after the referendum. If you can't see the fundamental difference in this and what it would have meant in a hypothetical negotiation then there is no fucking hope.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                                    I think we can all get firmly behind the idea that Nick Cohen is a massive gobshite. But is the stopped clock happening to tell the right time this time?
                                                    No.

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