Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Brexit Thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    The Norway option isn't "unspecified".

    Comment


      But if we're having "fair management of migration" rather than free movement, then Labour aren't pushing for a Norway option.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
        European Social Democrats aren't charging out of their biggest market and proposing to increase business taxes.
        European governments of all stripes, are moving to make companies pay an awful lot more in the way of tax. In large part because the UK veto has disappeared, and france and germany are staring very hard at ireland, netherlands and Luxembourg, and we're starting to sweat profusely. going along with gradual reforms, closing loopholes, and reaping huge tax returns. there is a recognition in brussels, that the only way the European fiscal compact is going to fly is if companies start paying tax, and funding the next phase of infrastructural development. Leaving the EU will put the UK govt even more in the power of the last large multinationals left. How can you tax someone when you will be begging them not to leave?

        Comment


          Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
          I might be being unfair about this. But the thing that drives me nuts is that free movement of people should be an absolute bedrock principle of any reasonable left wing party in the modern era, and it's clear that the people who resist it are the racists and the dog-whistlers. So I want somebody to actually stand up on this and shout back that there is literally no reason to manage migration between the UK and France, between the UK and Sweden, between the UK and Poland, between the UK and Romania. Instead we get mealy mouthed bullshit in order the achieve some half-hearted but unspecified compromise agreement.

          And we know that 48% were clearly and explicitly in favour of free movement. The odds are that enough of the remaining 52% who voted for Brexit didn't want the borders controlled. There was certainly no clear majority to shut down free movement, so why aren't Labour actually fighting this corner?
          Indeed.

          Comment


            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
            It really is the political equivalent of saying that you would definitely turn down a romantic tumble with Scarlet johansen...

            This really is bloody appalling, Berba. Don't do this.

            Comment


              Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
              But every EU citizen should have that option. I see no reason why not. The wider the freedom to move, the better, frankly.
              Under Frump? Yeah, right...

              Comment


                And we know that 48% were clearly and explicitly in favour of free movement.
                We don't know anything of the sort.
                We know 48% would accept free movement in return for the rest of the benefits involved in being in the EU. We don't know how many of those were grudgingly accepting it, or would prefer to control it etc. Or voted to keep the status quo, or from fear. That's not at all the same thing.

                I'm with you on the subject, but it's an error to paint all 17 million of the rest of the remain voters as virtuous champions of free movement.

                Comment


                  But the thing that drives me nuts is that free movement of people should be an absolute bedrock principle of any reasonable left wing party in the modern era
                  But free movement in EU terms isn't the right to go live anywhere you want. It's the right to go work anywhere you want. If you don't have a job, you're not supposed to go.
                  The principle behind it was and is economic rather than political. It's the whole Tebbit "on your bike" thing and as such isn't a left wing thing at all. It's capitalist idea.

                  Lexiters come from 2 main ideas, neither of which are in theory anything to do with race/nationality. There's protection of jobs and conditions by restricting competition and through collective bargaining - ie not allowing the undercutting of wages through imported competition. (This has been disproved, but it's counter-intuitive and we all know how much logic plays into people's thinking. This isn't a technocracy.)
                  And second that as internationalists, they should be encouraging each country to keep its labour force and fight for equality rather that act as a drain on other economies by stealing all their workforce.
                  Again, bullshit, but neither comes from racist thinking. More economic protectionism.

                  Comment


                    Good post I think, Hobbes.

                    Comment


                      Yes, though economics is political. That aside, it seems spot on.

                      Comment


                        FT and Bloomberg reporting the latest draft of the transition negotiating directives require the immigration cut-off date to be the end of the transition.

                        Comment


                          Hobbes is right. Moreover partly because of British historical resistance to identity cards, and partly because of language Britain is much easier to move to than most other countries. Also workers in Britain had for a number of political reasons fewer protections.- Everything has been deregulated here anyway - importing labour trained or untrained was preferable to most employees than paying for training, and because there was less and less paid training there was no attempt to protect domestic workforce or institutions. For example Germany makes it bureaucratically difficult for say plumbers from other jurisdictions to have their qualifications recognised. Primary school teachers who qualified outside of Ireland must satisfy the Irish-language requirement to be fully registered with the Teaching Council. That and the language barrier means that there are effective limits. In Britain not only do workers not have the same protections they often had to pay for their own training.

                          Comment


                            Of course, if Fox, Davies et al had any faith in their negotiating position and skills, they would be confidently stating that it is all up for discussion and not, for instance, whining about how unfair the nasty EU is being.
                            Last edited by Snake Plissken; 16-01-2018, 11:50.

                            Comment


                              Justine Greening has warned that Hard Brexit would be "unsustainable" with young people. Not that you ever count principled Tory rebels before they're hatched, but May might have made a rick forcing her out. I'm still not clear what's so important about Damien Hinds that he had to have her job.

                              Comment


                                The Tories as a whole are unsustainable with young people. Labour alone got three times as many votes from under-30s. They've pretty clearly thrown in their lot with the 50-and up crowd.

                                Comment


                                  Hobbes is right. Moreover partly because of British historical resistance to identity cards, and partly because of language Britain is much easier to move to than most other countries. Also workers in Britain had for a number of political reasons fewer protections.- Everything has been deregulated here anyway - importing labour trained or untrained was preferable to most employees than paying for training, and because there was less and less paid training there was no attempt to protect domestic workforce or institutions.
                                  Yes, as I've mentioned before, when you go to a McDonalds in Sweden you are served by Swedes. Not Lithuanian mechanical engineering graduates. The combination of high Swedish payroll taxes and strict, union enforced salary levels means that McDonalds Sweden has no incentive to import labour.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                                    But free movement in EU terms isn't the right to go live anywhere you want. It's the right to go work anywhere you want. If you don't have a job, you're not supposed to go.
                                    That's not strictly true is it. You can also move to study, look for work or start your own business. You're also allowed to live anywhere in the EU if you're "self-sufficient", though that obviously opens another can of worms.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by antoine polus View Post
                                      Yes, as I've mentioned before, when you go to a McDonalds in Sweden you are served by Swedes. Not Lithuanian mechanical engineering graduates. The combination of high Swedish payroll taxes and strict, union enforced salary levels means that McDonalds Sweden has no incentive to import labour.
                                      You're not served by a "Lithuanian mechanical engineer" here either. Nor do McDonalds UK "import labour". People move freely to find the best work they can. And the effect on wages, ceteris paribus, is likely tiny.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                        Hobbes is right. Moreover partly because of British historical resistance to identity cards, and partly because of language Britain is much easier to move to than most other countries. Also workers in Britain had for a number of political reasons fewer protections.- Everything has been deregulated here anyway - importing labour trained or untrained was preferable to most employees than paying for training, and because there was less and less paid training there was no attempt to protect domestic workforce or institutions. For example Germany makes it bureaucratically difficult for say plumbers from other jurisdictions to have their qualifications recognised. Primary school teachers who qualified outside of Ireland must satisfy the Irish-language requirement to be fully registered with the Teaching Council. That and the language barrier means that there are effective limits. In Britain not only do workers not have the same protections they often had to pay for their own training.
                                        I'm with you on the need for better worker protections, obviously. But Germany's bureaucratic protectionism of some services is a disgrace and likely costs the country a great deal of money.

                                        Had Cameron been competent, he could have shifted the EU towards the UK position. You could almost see the light bulb coming on with him and Hague. "No more transfers of powers... oh shit".

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                          You're not served by a "Lithuanian mechanical engineer" here either. Nor do McDonalds UK "import labour". People move freely to find the best work they can. And the effect on wages, ceteris paribus, is likely tiny.
                                          Are you denying that skilled workers from Eastern Europe have come to take unskilled jobs in the UK. Because certainly anecdotally that seems to be true. And McDonalds may not advertise in Poland and discourage local applicants, but other companies seem to do that.

                                          Comment


                                            Yeah, I'm not convinced that people import labour in the way described. this isn't the Jamestown colony we're talking about. normally the way it goes is that people move to places that are at or near full employment, from places that aren't at full employment. People move from lithuania to the UK because the south west is at full employment and growing at a rapid rate, and the flow of people from the other parts of the UK isn't sufficient to fill the various gaps. along with a real lack of any mechanism for retraining people and matching them to changing demand in the workforce.

                                            Now I have no doubt that Swedish pay rates, and the basic level of state provision of services make it possible for a swedish person to consider mcDonalds a reasonable job to have, but it's also important to remember that your lithuanian mechanical engineer, is going to have to learn swedish, which while not an insurmountable barrier, is going to put it beneath the uk, or Germany depending on what languages you learned in school.

                                            the thing is that if magically overnight, the Uk were to fix much of its regional imbalances, and suddenly have a high producitivity economy, with proper rates of pay, and employee protection, and all of the various deficiencies in the labour market were addressed, you'd still have a lot of people moving to the South west of the UK, if only because it's one of the richest parts of the EU, and lots of people speak english.

                                            Comment


                                              South West? South East shurely?

                                              Comment


                                                Yes. Very much so. Oops. I've driven from Bristol to New quay, and I really didn't mean the fucking south west. that place is like rural Ireland in the 80's.

                                                Comment


                                                  I don't go to McDonald's very often, but when I went in one last week I was served by a middle-aged Teesside woman, with some Teesside-looking youths behind the counter too.

                                                  But yeah, the best way to 'combat' immigration would be to switch to Dutch.

                                                  Comment


                                                    More Irish workers in the Dublin fast food joints these days as well.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X