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    I suspect he means liberal as in the opposite of social democratic. But it's a word that turns off many Brexiters and has appeal to many Remainers.

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      Berba is on the money re the political centre of the EU being further on the left than in the UK. Labour, even nowadays, is a tame social democrat political entity at European level. Reading lexiters, you'd think they are revolutionary socialist party and the EU some kind of cyberpunk world corporate dictatorship...

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        Hmm, reading the 'hard left' views on Brexit, they strike me largely as vague or disingenuous as Corbyn generally.
        But few under retirement age seem to be vehemently anti-EU, bar a few Luddites.

        As for the Brit Labour party being a 'tame social democratic party' domestically, compared to their European equivalents of a similar size, definitely nor.
        Which could well feed into any new MEPs in due course.
        Last edited by Dav O'Roso; 15-01-2018, 23:48.

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          Policies wise, there is nothing coming from Labour that is notably more radical than yer average social democratic party in Europe. A fair chunk of their flagship policies are in fact pretty mainstream. Sure, in contrast to the Tories, they are radical but thats because the Tories are moving so much to the right that they are now more at ease with nutters from Poland than their nominal euro counterparts....

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            Originally posted by Moonlight shadow View Post
            Policies wise, there is nothing coming from Labour that is notably more radical than yer average social democratic party in Europe. A fair chunk of their flagship policies are in fact pretty mainstream. Sure, in contrast to the Tories, they are radical but thats because the Tories are moving so much to the right that they are now more at ease with nutters from Poland than their nominal euro counterparts....
            A reminder David Cameron took the Conservatives out of Coalition with the EPP group of Christian Democreats and into coalition with a group that included " the nutters from Poland" - and the AfD in Germany.

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              Originally posted by Moonlight shadow View Post
              Policies wise, there is nothing coming from Labour that is notably more radical than yer average social democratic party in Europe. A fair chunk of their flagship policies are in fact pretty mainstream. Sure, in contrast to the Tories, they are radical but thats because the Tories are moving so much to the right that they are now more at ease with nutters from Poland than their nominal euro counterparts....
              European Social Democrats aren't charging out of their biggest market and proposing to increase business taxes.

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                Reminder, Tubby. It was the Conservative Party and their coalition partner the Liberal Democrat’s who called for the referendum. It was the right of the Conservative Party who controlled the negotiations and the public discourse. Whilst the right of the Labour Party launched a coup against Corbyn the day after the referendum which more or less tied up Labour for the next three months. So angrily blaming the left for the mess we’re in is neither rational nor productive

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                  I don't blame the left. Miliband deserves huge credit for standing firm in 2015. And Cameron lost the referendum.

                  What I query is Hard Brexit plus Corbynism. Plus other Tory base pleasing expensive policies on pensions.

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                    Corbyn delivers Norway, he's the man.

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                      Cos it will be suicidal to remove the triple lock until you have to. Even non pensioners get all misty eyed for the auld yins. It would go down about as well as say, putting VAT on children’s shoes.

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                        No need to remind me Nef, i had that in mind when pointing out how extreme the Tories have become.

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                          Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                          Cos it will be suicidal to remove the triple lock until you have to. Even non pensioners get all misty eyed for the auld yins. It would go down about as well as say, putting VAT on children’s shoes.
                          Labour could have backed Hammond when he tried to get rid of it. McDonnell, unilaterally, restated commitment to it.

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                            And sure, you can't just do policy wonk policies, even good ones. You need populist ones. But you can't afford them with Hard Brexit so much.

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                              Keir Starmer has just reposted this on twitter

                              Starmer’s six tests for the Brexit deal are:

                              1. Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?

                              2. Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

                              3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?

                              4. Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?

                              5. Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?

                              6. Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?
                              The real problem for the Labour party is Gresham's Law, that bad currency tends to drive out good. When one side is making promises that bear no relation whatsoever to reality (Johnson's back lying about the 350 million quid claiming it was a huge underestimate) supported by a rabid right wing press and a docile state broadcaster it's very hard for the Labour Party to find a buyer for its harsh reality. Given that the best thing they can do is find the pressure points and show that they are prepared to deliver an edn to austerity and real change in the areas that matter- jobs, wages, housing, education. If they can win the people's confidence then we can talk. without it they'' be fucked and had for breakfast by Paul Dacre.

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                                3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?
                                Grrrr! Why? Why do they need to mention this? Why do they need to keep going with the idea that stopping people moving of their own free will is a good thing, a worthwhile thing, or even an acceptable thing? Particularly when the imposition is coming entirely from a bunch of racist shits.

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                                  How would you test that anyway?

                                  I can see why they feel they have to say it, in fairness to them.

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                                    Except one could argue, (and I'm hoping Starmer would) that the "fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities" would be covered by implementing some of the opt-outs available under EU law not used by previous Labour or Conservative governments.

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                                      I think they'll have to do that stuff to get acceptance for a Norway. So I give slack on that.

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                                        Norway will be an awful sell. Will probably kill the Govt that has to do it.

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                                          Best hope is May feels like retiring anyway.

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                                            So, we have to pander to the racists rather than argue from a position of principle, in order to get some scraps we might like? Hurrah for the glorious new regime that replaced the terrible Blairism that, er, yes... what was that?

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                                              Heh. The smell of shite from SLab on this reeks something awful. Neil Findlay and Leonard making me pine for the forensic opposition of fucking Dugdale.

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                                                No-one's talking about pandering to racism. But there are plenty of ways of implementing freedom of movement with the restrictions used in other EU countries which might help win back to the European Union the people who voted against it.

                                                Not everyone has the option to go and work in the US.

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                                                  I might be being unfair about this. But the thing that drives me nuts is that free movement of people should be an absolute bedrock principle of any reasonable left wing party in the modern era, and it's clear that the people who resist it are the racists and the dog-whistlers. So I want somebody to actually stand up on this and shout back that there is literally no reason to manage migration between the UK and France, between the UK and Sweden, between the UK and Poland, between the UK and Romania. Instead we get mealy mouthed bullshit in order the achieve some half-hearted but unspecified compromise agreement.

                                                  And we know that 48% were clearly and explicitly in favour of free movement. The odds are that enough of the remaining 52% who voted for Brexit didn't want the borders controlled. There was certainly no clear majority to shut down free movement, so why aren't Labour actually fighting this corner?

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                                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

                                                    Not everyone has the option to go and work in the US.
                                                    But every EU citizen should have that option. I see no reason why not. The wider the freedom to move, the better, frankly.

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