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    Indeed. I've been asking those who are leading on this for some clarity. I even asked the folk putting the motion forward at our CLP meeting last week. I've never had an answer from any of them.
    Until that happens, I can't support it.

    Comment


      Originally posted by johnr View Post
      Indeed. I've been asking those who are leading on this for some clarity. I even asked the folk putting the motion forward at our CLP meeting last week. I've never had an answer from any of them.
      Until that happens, I can't support it.
      The way events are progressing, it looks increasingly like No Deal vs Remain.

      Comment


        It's shooting fish in a barrel, but it was very elegant shooting without a wasted bullet.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
          Does anyone know what the options are on this second referendum everyone wants.

          Are they:
          Yes, accept the deal
          No, don't accept the deal and leave
          No, don't accept the deal and stay

          If that third option isn't on there I'm not sure what I'll do.
          1. Corbyn out.
          2. Stay in the EU
          3. Corbyn out. Really, really.

          Comment


            Originally posted by johnr View Post
            Indeed. I've been asking those who are leading on this for some clarity. I even asked the folk putting the motion forward at our CLP meeting last week. I've never had an answer from any of them.
            Until that happens, I can't support it.
            I think what some of them are doing is pushing a referendum in the abstract, as a way out of stalemate. So in that sense it's not so important at this stage to know what goes on the paper. So a "blind referendum". Cant blame you for being very cautious about supporting that.

            Comment


              Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
              One of the ways those in favour of a second referendum have increased support for that option has been by being very non-committal about what the options would be.
              Exactement.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                Whatever the option, it seems Corbyn won't offer it if he gains power:

                https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1042806209240342528
                Just fuck off you witless oxygen thief.

                Comment


                  Utter fucking waste on time trying to reason with Corbyn on this...

                  Interesting polling how popular it would prove to Labour if they pushed for a new ref, from two separate polls. But, yeah, keep on pushing for your Socialist Brexit...

                  Comment


                    There was something on the Graun earlier about how the trade unions and CLP proposals might push the party leadership into changing (or give them the excuse they need to change) tack and support a second referendum.

                    Looks like conference season is going to be interesting, to say the least.

                    Comment


                      I think some are not getting the politics of this. This bloke at least has a go.https://www.opendemocracy.net/sunny-...ring-all-clues

                      Comment


                        It's a good job Corbyn's paying the long game. I mean, we clearly have all the time in the world to turn this shitshow off, so I'm sure his looking like a fucking idiot just now is some kind of diabolical political masterstroke.

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                          If you - or indeed anybody else online - can explain how Starmer backing a 2nd referendum now - thus handing the narrative, and then a hard Brexit, to the Tories - would make things better, I'm all ears, genuinely.

                          Comment


                            Why do you think the largest opposition party actually opposing the government when the government is doing something utterly moronic hands the narrative to the government?

                            You wouldn't have said that about any other idiotic Tory policy. You'd not have said "Let's not oppose the Poll Tax, because that hands to narrative to the Tories", for example.

                            And also, given that we're heading at juggernaut speed towards a hard Brexit - with the only hope of stopping it being that somehow Teresa May can magically convince the Northern Irish body politic that a blockchain border2.0 in the Irish Sea that looks exactly like a border isn't actually a border because some products have barcodes stamped on them - it seems tenuous at best to suggest that Labour's lack of opposition to a hard Brexit is the only thing stopping a hard Brexit.

                            Comment


                              This. It’s far too late now, Labour have been shocking over Brexit these last two years. As dishonest and triangulating as anything Blair did

                              Comment


                                You wouldn't have said that about any other idiotic Tory policy. You'd not have said "Let's not oppose the Poll Tax, because that hands to narrative to the Tories", for example.
                                Labour were a bit slow off the mark with the Poll Tax, as it happens, because they saw local government as a bad issue for them at the time.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                  Why do you think the largest opposition party actually opposing the government when the government is doing something utterly moronic hands the narrative to the government?

                                  You wouldn't have said that about any other idiotic Tory policy. You'd not have said "Let's not oppose the Poll Tax, because that hands to narrative to the Tories", for example.

                                  And also, given that we're heading at juggernaut speed towards a hard Brexit - with the only hope of stopping it being that somehow Teresa May can magically convince the Northern Irish body politic that a blockchain border2.0 in the Irish Sea that looks exactly like a border isn't actually a border because some products have barcodes stamped on them - it seems tenuous at best to suggest that Labour's lack of opposition to a hard Brexit is the only thing stopping a hard Brexit.
                                  Have you read the article that I linked to? It makes the argument for why I think that, better than I can. In short, they are opposing the Government in the currently only meaningful way they can - by mocking/disagreeing with May's Chequers approach, then voting against it in the Commons. I can't see what else they can do.

                                  'Brexit' isn't a 'policy' in the same way that any other issue is, which is why it was fucking stupid to have a referendum on it. Saying 'we shouldn't leave the EU' is pointless now - it's been pointless since the day after the Referendum. It's all about how it's done, as far as I can see.

                                  Though, if it wasn't, Starmer's approach is the only viable way (that I can see, and I've asked quite a few folk to, seriously, map out an alternative, to not much response so far) that we can even get to 'Remain' - the Government has to be defeated in the Commons first; the Tories fall, Labour applies for A50 extension (and yes, they should never have 3-line whipped for it in the first place), gets whatever deal it can, and then puts that to the Country, take it or Remain. No Deal not an option.

                                  Comment


                                    What's the policy for a general election? Why not run that policy now?

                                    How aboutthis?

                                    Labour frontbench- You lot have totally lost control. We're not waiting till you've chucked away the car industry. Single Market, Customs Union, it's going to have to be.

                                    Tories- That's worse than Remaining!

                                    Labour frontbench- It's better than what you're doing.

                                    Tories- Er...

                                    Voices offstage- What does it say that the best leave option is worse than Remain, anybody?

                                    Comment


                                      I read the piece, and think that it accurately describes most of the Labour Leadership's position - they are basically triangulating, and utterly terrified of losing "Labour Leavers" and "Lexiters".

                                      It's utterly misplaced, though. Fear of losing the handful of Labour Leavers seems to trump fear of losing the massive number of Labour Remainers. A feeling that Labour Remainers have other priorities and won't be freaked out by this ridiculous strategy, while assuming that Labour Leavers are going to go completely apeshit is a second referendum is offered. A feeling that they have to pander to the xenophobes and racists (and the handful who oppose Brexit on principle), while not pandering to non-racists.

                                      It seems utterly ridiculous, and at the moment makes it appear that Labour will have tied their own hands behind their backs and abandoned actual opposition.

                                      We expect the Tories to be nonsensical incoherent arseholes, particularly on this, but it really doesn't help when the political opposition isn't pointing this out.

                                      It's disastrous when the most serious opposition to the government on the most important issue of the day seems to be a handful of BBC and Channel 4 journalists.

                                      Comment


                                        Geopolitics genius, IDS, is very upset with Macron.

                                        "Liars? How dare he! We really are this thick!"

                                        Comment


                                          A second referendum is a terrible idea. Ramp the vicious racism up even more with another foul campaign and end up with a hard brexit anyway. I have no idea why 'remainers' would back this.

                                          What should happen is a majority of MPs going "You know what? Having looked at all these impact assessments, it's evident that leaving the EU would be disastrous on every level, so we're exercising our power as democratically elected representatives to say no, that advisory referendum is not going to drive us ff a ciff, and we are reversing that decisio.n t eave the EU"

                                          They won't do that f0r reas0ns such as death threats, n0t wanting to etc, -but that is what remainers sh0u1d push fr, sure1y
                                          It fee1s strange t' be m0re remain than remainers, but its strange times,.

                                          I see my keyb0ard has g0ne funny again

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                            What's the policy for a general election? Why not run that policy now?

                                            How aboutthis?

                                            Labour frontbench- You lot have totally lost control. We're not waiting till you've chucked away the car industry. Single Market, Customs Union, it's going to have to be.

                                            Tories- That's worse than Remaining!

                                            Labour frontbench- It's better than what you're doing.

                                            Tories- Er...

                                            Voices offstage- What does it say that the best leave option is worse than Remain, anybody?
                                            Isn't that Starmer's strategy?

                                            SB, I'm not sure what you mean by 'abandoned actual opposition'? What else can an opposition do but lobby and vote for an entirely different strategy than the one the Government is following?

                                            If you mean 'support a People's Vote' as being an opposition - well, Labour's been saying for a while now that they're not ruling it out (i.e., they'll support it if we can't bring the Government down first), so I'm not sure what you're after.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
                                              A second referendum is a terrible idea. Ramp the vicious racism up even more with another foul campaign and end up with a hard brexit anyway. I have no idea why 'remainers' would back this.

                                              What should happen is a majority of MPs going "You know what? Having looked at all these impact assessments, it's evident that leaving the EU would be disastrous on every level, so we're exercising our power as democratically elected representatives to say no, that advisory referendum is not going to drive us ff a ciff, and we are reversing that decisio.n t eave the EU"

                                              They won't do that f0r reas0ns such as death threats, n0t wanting to etc, -but that is what remainers sh0u1d push fr, sure1y
                                              It fee1s strange t' be m0re remain than remainers, but its strange times,.

                                              I see my keyb0ard has g0ne funny again
                                              I don't understand how you think a second referendum will ensure a hard Brexit, yet Parliament telling the public to fuck off won't.

                                              Comment


                                                There is no way out via parliament for this, not when the tiny faction of hardcore Brexiters in it have such a disproportionate voice in the media. A referendum sets us on this course, only a referendum can reverse it (or indeed confirm it) and it will be between "Leave without agreement" and "Revoke A50".

                                                Corbyn has never ceased to believe Brexit had to happen, cause a mess (which he is fully aware of) and this sweeps in the glorious revolution. I remain convinced this is the deeply cynical "plot" by the Labour leadership that has been agreed but it has started to fall apart because there is less and less evidence that reversing A50 would cause the anger the rw media are saying it will...The last one defending it will be Corbyn and we will see how respectful he is of the wishes of the majority...

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
                                                  What should happen is a majority of MPs going "You know what? Having looked at all these impact assessments, it's evident that leaving the EU would be disastrous on every level, so we're exercising our power as democratically elected representatives to say no, that advisory referendum is not going to drive us ff a ciff, and we are reversing that decisio.n t eave the EU"


                                                  <Applause>

                                                  Comment


                                                    Grayling now saying that the EU needs to soften its position on the Irish border.

                                                    That would be the border deal the UK already signed up to in December. So essentially he doesn't agree with his own government's position.

                                                    Fucking clowns.

                                                    Comment

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