The Norway option isn't "unspecified".
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
The Brexit Thread
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View PostEuropean Social Democrats aren't charging out of their biggest market and proposing to increase business taxes.
Comment
-
Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View PostI might be being unfair about this. But the thing that drives me nuts is that free movement of people should be an absolute bedrock principle of any reasonable left wing party in the modern era, and it's clear that the people who resist it are the racists and the dog-whistlers. So I want somebody to actually stand up on this and shout back that there is literally no reason to manage migration between the UK and France, between the UK and Sweden, between the UK and Poland, between the UK and Romania. Instead we get mealy mouthed bullshit in order the achieve some half-hearted but unspecified compromise agreement.
And we know that 48% were clearly and explicitly in favour of free movement. The odds are that enough of the remaining 52% who voted for Brexit didn't want the borders controlled. There was certainly no clear majority to shut down free movement, so why aren't Labour actually fighting this corner?
Comment
-
And we know that 48% were clearly and explicitly in favour of free movement.
We know 48% would accept free movement in return for the rest of the benefits involved in being in the EU. We don't know how many of those were grudgingly accepting it, or would prefer to control it etc. Or voted to keep the status quo, or from fear. That's not at all the same thing.
I'm with you on the subject, but it's an error to paint all 17 million of the rest of the remain voters as virtuous champions of free movement.
Comment
-
But the thing that drives me nuts is that free movement of people should be an absolute bedrock principle of any reasonable left wing party in the modern era
The principle behind it was and is economic rather than political. It's the whole Tebbit "on your bike" thing and as such isn't a left wing thing at all. It's capitalist idea.
Lexiters come from 2 main ideas, neither of which are in theory anything to do with race/nationality. There's protection of jobs and conditions by restricting competition and through collective bargaining - ie not allowing the undercutting of wages through imported competition. (This has been disproved, but it's counter-intuitive and we all know how much logic plays into people's thinking. This isn't a technocracy.)
And second that as internationalists, they should be encouraging each country to keep its labour force and fight for equality rather that act as a drain on other economies by stealing all their workforce.
Again, bullshit, but neither comes from racist thinking. More economic protectionism.
Comment
-
Hobbes is right. Moreover partly because of British historical resistance to identity cards, and partly because of language Britain is much easier to move to than most other countries. Also workers in Britain had for a number of political reasons fewer protections.- Everything has been deregulated here anyway - importing labour trained or untrained was preferable to most employees than paying for training, and because there was less and less paid training there was no attempt to protect domestic workforce or institutions. For example Germany makes it bureaucratically difficult for say plumbers from other jurisdictions to have their qualifications recognised. Primary school teachers who qualified outside of Ireland must satisfy the Irish-language requirement to be fully registered with the Teaching Council. That and the language barrier means that there are effective limits. In Britain not only do workers not have the same protections they often had to pay for their own training.
Comment
-
Of course, if Fox, Davies et al had any faith in their negotiating position and skills, they would be confidently stating that it is all up for discussion and not, for instance, whining about how unfair the nasty EU is being.Last edited by Snake Plissken; 16-01-2018, 11:50.
Comment
-
Justine Greening has warned that Hard Brexit would be "unsustainable" with young people. Not that you ever count principled Tory rebels before they're hatched, but May might have made a rick forcing her out. I'm still not clear what's so important about Damien Hinds that he had to have her job.
Comment
-
Hobbes is right. Moreover partly because of British historical resistance to identity cards, and partly because of language Britain is much easier to move to than most other countries. Also workers in Britain had for a number of political reasons fewer protections.- Everything has been deregulated here anyway - importing labour trained or untrained was preferable to most employees than paying for training, and because there was less and less paid training there was no attempt to protect domestic workforce or institutions.
Comment
-
Originally posted by hobbes View PostBut free movement in EU terms isn't the right to go live anywhere you want. It's the right to go work anywhere you want. If you don't have a job, you're not supposed to go.
Comment
-
Originally posted by antoine polus View PostYes, as I've mentioned before, when you go to a McDonalds in Sweden you are served by Swedes. Not Lithuanian mechanical engineering graduates. The combination of high Swedish payroll taxes and strict, union enforced salary levels means that McDonalds Sweden has no incentive to import labour.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View PostHobbes is right. Moreover partly because of British historical resistance to identity cards, and partly because of language Britain is much easier to move to than most other countries. Also workers in Britain had for a number of political reasons fewer protections.- Everything has been deregulated here anyway - importing labour trained or untrained was preferable to most employees than paying for training, and because there was less and less paid training there was no attempt to protect domestic workforce or institutions. For example Germany makes it bureaucratically difficult for say plumbers from other jurisdictions to have their qualifications recognised. Primary school teachers who qualified outside of Ireland must satisfy the Irish-language requirement to be fully registered with the Teaching Council. That and the language barrier means that there are effective limits. In Britain not only do workers not have the same protections they often had to pay for their own training.
Had Cameron been competent, he could have shifted the EU towards the UK position. You could almost see the light bulb coming on with him and Hague. "No more transfers of powers... oh shit".
Comment
-
Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View PostYou're not served by a "Lithuanian mechanical engineer" here either. Nor do McDonalds UK "import labour". People move freely to find the best work they can. And the effect on wages, ceteris paribus, is likely tiny.
Comment
-
Yeah, I'm not convinced that people import labour in the way described. this isn't the Jamestown colony we're talking about. normally the way it goes is that people move to places that are at or near full employment, from places that aren't at full employment. People move from lithuania to the UK because the south west is at full employment and growing at a rapid rate, and the flow of people from the other parts of the UK isn't sufficient to fill the various gaps. along with a real lack of any mechanism for retraining people and matching them to changing demand in the workforce.
Now I have no doubt that Swedish pay rates, and the basic level of state provision of services make it possible for a swedish person to consider mcDonalds a reasonable job to have, but it's also important to remember that your lithuanian mechanical engineer, is going to have to learn swedish, which while not an insurmountable barrier, is going to put it beneath the uk, or Germany depending on what languages you learned in school.
the thing is that if magically overnight, the Uk were to fix much of its regional imbalances, and suddenly have a high producitivity economy, with proper rates of pay, and employee protection, and all of the various deficiencies in the labour market were addressed, you'd still have a lot of people moving to the South west of the UK, if only because it's one of the richest parts of the EU, and lots of people speak english.
Comment
Comment