The Brexit Thread

[Lang Spoon]

More lies from Brendan Fuckin ONeill in Fraser Fraser Nelson’s vile rag:

https://mobile.twitter.com/spectator...95716235165697

These Spiked online professional contrarians are dangerous scumbags. Furedi, Fox, O’Neill, they deserve biblical punishment, but will probably just grow fat on dirty money from the Koch brothers et al.

[Lang Spoon]

No one outside Yaxley Lennon idolators actually read delingpole’s Breitbart UK shitbag website. The Spectator is still taken seriously and is way more dangerous.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The fundamental fact is that the vote in 2016 said we should leave, and it takes something extraordinary to ignore that. The "it was only advisory" doesn't work, everyone worked on the basis that it would be implemented. The "it was based on a tissue of lies and fantasies" argument is true, but insufficient. The 2015 General Election (to choose only the most egregious recent example) was won on a tissue of lies and fantasies too and had disastrous consequences but we still had to let Cameron form a government. The "it was based on an almost wholesale disregard for electoral law" is by far the strongest argument, morally, but I don't think would have much traction politically or electorally. I don't think that the "democracy didn't come to an end in 2016" is as strong an argument as those making it seem to think - it's perfectly democratic to have a second ref after the results of the first have been implemented if people think that it was a mistake, I'm not sure it's democratic to reverse the result before they have been put into practice, and I think one of the reasons support for the 2nd ref remains low is that lots of people who want to remain acknowledge on some level that it is not particularly democratic to set aside the results of the first referendum.

See I fundamentally don't understand how it is undemocratic to hold a second referendum asking a similar but different question. Particularly when something hasn't been implemented yet. We do it all the fucking time. Our first meaningful referendum was about whether we should introduce first past the post. Then ten years later we rejected it a second time. We had a referendum on Abortion in 1983. We had three more referenda in 1992, we had another referendum in the early 2000's, and we had another one just there. We had a divorce referendum in 1986, and another in 1997 (Which passed by a fraction of a vote) We're going to have to have another referendum to change the overly prescriptive terms (You need to be living apart for five years) We voted against the Nice Treaty, on the back of low turnout and bullshit reasons. We went back to the EU and got them to say that the Nice treaty had nothing to do with bullshit reasons, and ran the referendum again. We voted against the Lisbon treaty primarily because we were pissed off that the government had just crashed the economy, but got a variety of guarantees, and went again. It's not undemocratic. It's just a reason for avoiding a referendum based system.

The thing is that this is a different question. It turns out that we now know what Brexit means. Brexit is either being pushed into a customs union indefinitely, in order to avoid a border in the sea with Northern Ireland, which will effectively become a different country in a number of key respects. Oh and there will be no trade deals in this customs union. And if the UK doesn't accept this pretty much immediately, then there will be a full blown economic war. That's what Brexit means. Now a second referendum would be a preference based choice between Economic War, This abortion of a withdrawal deal, or just staying in the EU.

That's more than sufficiently different to avoid criticism on democratic grounds. It's a very different question.

Ultimately it boils down to this. Labour's current position is indefensible bullshit. Either they are in favour of implementing brexit, which means that they vote for the Withdrawal Agreement, (because it is the only deal that was ever going to be on the table, even for them.) Or they are not in favour of implementing Brexit, in which case they should call for a second referendum. Opposing both means you chose No-deal Brexit.

(The thing that strikes me as odd about the Brexit referendum is that in Ireland, normally it is young people pushing for a referendum to overcome the old. Brexit is the other way around.)

[Snake Plissken]

If the Government are so confident that they can win the proposed motion, why are they refusing for it to be held? Or is that Corbyn's fault too?

[Nefertiti2]

TAB - some differences Ireland is now a country of referenda- you've had dozens. We're a country of first past the post which means that the electoral arithmetic is all over the place.

and you're a population of 4.7 million recently radicalised because the most powerful institution in the country since it was founded has been shown to be fundamentally corrupt and to hate its own citizens.

The UK population is 66 million and we haven't definitively established that yet.

[Lucy Waterman]

More lies from Brendan Fuckin ONeill in Fraser Fraser Nelson’s vile rag:

https://mobile.twitter.com/spectator...95716235165697

These Spiked online professional contrarians are dangerous scumbags. Furedi, Fox, O’Neill, they deserve biblical punishment, but will probably just grow fat on dirty money from the Koch brothers et al.

And Jonathan Pie.

[Lucy Waterman]

Now a second referendum would be a preference based choice between Economic War, This abortion of a withdrawal deal, or just staying in the EU.

I would not be at all confident about putting those options before the British public.

[johnr]

Given that this is a place where points and arguments for all sides (well, most, as we don't have the ardent Leaver anymore) are put in fine detail and with passion, and with more clarity than in much of the media, has anyone here actually changed their views on any of it?

I haven't. I don't know whether I should be proud or ashamed of that.

[ad hoc]

No. The only thing that this thread has done in changing my mind is around small nuances regarding Labour party policy

[Duncan Gardner]

Given that this is a place where points and arguments for all sides (well, most, as we don't have the ardent Leaver anymore) are put in fine detail and with passion, and with more clarity than in much of the media, has anyone here actually changed their views on any of it?

I was against a second referendum until Terri refused to put her deal to the vote. Now I see it as the least worst option.

More lies from Brendan Fuckin ONeill in Fraser Fraser Nelson’s vile rag:

https://mobile.twitter.com/spectator...95716235165697

These Spiked online professional contrarians are dangerous scumbags. Furedi, Fox, O’Neill, they deserve biblical punishment, but will probably just grow fat on dirty money from the Koch brothers et al

O'Neill was on the BBC NI 'Talkback' panel yesterday. It started civilly enough- SDLP's Claire Hanna and UUP ex-leader Reg Empey broadly agreed on the least worst option as above. Then Bren accused them of backing a coup d'etat, so Hanna retaliated by slagging Spiked and the Kochs before being threatened with defamation

[George C.]

TAB - some differences Ireland is now a country of referenda- you've had dozens. We're a country of first past the post which means that the electoral arithmetic is all over the place.

and you're a population of 4.7 million recently radicalised because the most powerful institution in the country since it was founded has been shown to be fundamentally corrupt and to hate its own citizens.

The UK population is 66 million and we haven't definitively established that yet.

Absolutely.

And as LW said, a 2nd referendum will be no cakewalk.

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

If the Government are so confident that they can win the proposed motion, why are they refusing for it to be held? Or is that Corbyn's fault too?

They are spinning it as 'political games' and a waste of parliament time - because holding three days of debate and allowing 160 MPs to speak on a motion then aborting the debate and deferring the motion for a month purely because they knew they would lose was of course a good use of time and not in any way game-playing.

[Tubby Isaacs]

They're talking rubbish but if nobody thinks they'll lose, the government probably won't take a hit on dodging. Corbyn ought to get stuck in nicely nonetheless.

The more substantive criticism of Labour's position is that they want a general election that probably won't happen to push through a policy that the EU say won't happen. They do also say "all options are on the table" but that's what they need to be setting out right now.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Has anyone made a speech like Etienne's post? All options have problems, we need to think about that, etc?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Given that this is a place where points and arguments for all sides (well, most, as we don't have the ardent Leaver anymore) are put in fine detail and with passion, and with more clarity than in much of the media, has anyone here actually changed their views on any of it?

I haven't. I don't know whether I should be proud or ashamed of that.

I'd forgotten about Lukey.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is this what they meant by "let's spend it on the NHS instead"? Good God.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1074987787953336322

[Moonlight Shadow]

Judging by the gloom descending on the world economy, those No Deal figures in term of impact are going to prove optimistic...

[Tubby Isaacs]

Indeed not. There's lots of complacency because we got an uplift from better than expected EU growth since Brexit.

[Patrick Thistle]

Given that this is a place where points and arguments for all sides (well, most, as we don't have the ardent Leaver anymore) are put in fine detail and with passion, and with more clarity than in much of the media, has anyone here actually changed their views on any of it?

I haven't. I don't know whether I should be proud or ashamed of that.

No. I voted Remain. I still want to Remain. I don't care if that is undemocratically undermining the will of the people because I meet absolute idiots every day and I wouldn't trust them with cutlery let alone a vote on anything of consequence. Which proves I'm smarter than David Cameron.

And people saying 'we have to respect the will of the people' are ignoring the 48% of people who wanted to stay in the EU and are very angry at having to bear the cost of Brexit along with everyone else. That's why Corbyn lost me all over again.

[Auntie Beryl]

What PT said, pretty much word for word.

[edit: that said, I do appreciate the manner in which this topic is being handled here, as opposed to almost everywhere else; even if I may not agree with methodologies put forward.]

[Patrick Thistle]

No. I voted Remain. I still want to Remain. I don't care if that is undemocratically undermining the will of the people because I meet absolute idiots every day and I wouldn't trust them with cutlery let alone a vote on anything of consequence. Which proves I'm smarter than David Cameron.

And people saying 'we have to respect the will of the people' are ignoring the 48% of people who wanted to stay in the EU and are very angry at having to bear the cost of Brexit along with everyone else. That's why Corbyn lost me all over again.

Or to put it another way. I don't think there is anyone out there who represents me or what I want out of all this. It feels like the rowdy gammons and straight-armed Mail readers get all the air time in the interest of 'balance' and opinions have to be 'respected' even when they have no tethers to reality.

The old people who voted for this are going to die in terrible hospital conditions as the NHS collapses without a workforce and they'll all still spew the MSM script and blame the Remoaners for not making Brexit work. And, unfortunately, they'll have to share a grave with their grandchildren if their grandchildren have chronic healthcare conditions. And I don't think their grandchildren deserve that.

The people who get gunned down in this country are the decent people like Jo Cox. And somehow mediocre failed politicians like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson are lined up to host Have I Got News For You and have Nicky Campbell fellate them on air. And the reason? the reason? Because those who oppose JRM and Boris aren't psychotic hatemonger braying right wing nazis-in-all-but-name. We don't get angry. We send snarky tweets instead. We don't buy pistols from the gang boss in the pub. We share memes. For all the good that does.

[Patrick Thistle]

And when I say idiots I mean I work in a hospital and every day I have to elbow my way in through the main doors past the crowd of smokers clustered outside the doors sucking on their death sticks who can't see a cause and effect chain between their actions and where they are standing. Why would you let people with such poor decision making faculties make a decision on anything?

And going on demographics of who smokes and where voted Brexit, you know that if they bothered to vote they most likely voted Leave.

[Patrick Thistle]

Is this what they meant by "let's spend it on the NHS instead"? Good God.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1074987787953336322

Oh good. Somewhere to store the insulin.

But what happens after 6 weeks?

[Walt Flanagans Dog]

Oh good. Somewhere to store the insulin.

But what happens after 6 weeks?

You're assuming they've set aside any money to actually buy insulin, before they blew it all on fridges.

[Aitch]

Recycling!

When stocks run out after six weeks they can use the fridges to store bodies.
Don't forget this is the greenest government ever!