2017 Copa Libertadores

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

One not bad result - a 1-1 draw away to Zulia, a bit underwhelming after beating them 5-0 at home just last week, for Lanús - and two good results for Argentina's representatives tonight. José Sand's equaliser for Lanús means he's now the club's joint-third highest goalscorer of all time.

The good results? A 3-1 away win for Godoy Cruz against Sport Boys Warnes, who ended the game with ten men after Jherson Córdoba scored and then a minute later elbowed an opponent (none of your sly, obviously-deliberate-but-not-making-it-totally-clear, Marcelo on Messi nonsense; this was a full-blooded elbow to the bridge of the nose). And a 2-1 win for River Plate away to Emelec, earned the hard way after going 1-0 down to a very nicely taken goal after just over a minute. Lucas Alario got the winner for River, meaning he now has 36 goals in 66 matches for River. And not rabbit-killing goals, either. He opened the scoring in the 2015 Libertadores final (after also scoring key goals in the semis, right after joining the club), scored the only goal in their Club World Cup semi that same year, and has a host of others in big games. Whoever signs him in the coming European transfer window ought to be very happy, because Alario surely won't still be a River player by the time the knockout stages roll around.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Mass brawls involving Peñarol and Brazilian teams:

The most famous was probably this one after they lost the 2011 Libertadores final to Santos.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y70bXPeDK6M

But there's a long history. Video evidence is lacking but it also kicked off in the 1962 Libertadores final second leg against Pelé's Santos in 1962 and again with Palmeiras after a Libertadores defeat in 1968.

Grêmio v Peñarol in 1993.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=29peYOpmQPE

Here's Peñarol and Flamengo in the Copa Mercosul in 1999.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=snAKMkxPkVc

In January this year, Atlético-PR thought it would be a good idea to warm up for the Libertadores with a friendly......against Peñarol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=noYdGaiLOMw

Sam - I'm sure there are plenty of examples of Peñarol losing it against Argentinian clubs or do they reserve their worst violence for Brazilians?

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

I'm not sure, to be honest. In my mind's eye the worst incidents with Argentine clubs in the Copa normally involve a Brazilian team, but I'm sure there's been some shameful shit with Uruguayan visitors as well.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Yes, I'm sure. I was at a loose end this afternoon so I decided to do some research on YouTube.

I'll be interested to see what measures Conmebol take. I'm sure they'll throw the book at Felipe Melo but Peñarol really deserve some heavy punishment for the absence of policing, the behaviour of both their players and the officials who attempted to prevent Palmeiras reaching their dressing room. Even the stewards on the terraces were chucking stuff at the Palmeiras fans. If it hadn't been for the intervention of their private security guys, Palmeiras players could have been seriously hurt.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Mate, every club in South America deserves heavy punishment for the absence of policing.

[danielmak]

2017 Copa Libertadores

While my general delays are caused by avoiding spoilers (I don't even come around until I've finished watching what I'd like to watch), this time I thought I posted and realized I hadn't.

I agree 100% with cantagalo that Felipe Melo did what he needed to do: He tried to back up and he was chased. When the chasing didn't end, he threw a punch. Who knows what he said before he was chased, but words are words.

Melo has been suspended for 4 games (maybe it was 3) and 4 Penarol players received an equal suspension, which shows that Melo didn't have many options.

At this point, I have a hard time teasing out which clubs were involved in which fights/spats/problems on and off the pitch. Obviously the biggest one that stands out was Sao Paulo-Tigre a few years back. But Penarol does seem to be in the mix with a lot of problems. The derby with Nacional did not happen last semester because of problems with Penarol fans.

I posted on another board that if the final was happening now River-Flamengo would be the most enjoyable but Flamengo is now at 2 losses. Palmeiras is clearly impressive in their ability to pull out late results. I'm still waiting to see 90 minutes of football from this side. If I think back to a year ago, Atl Nacional did not take a siesta until matchday 5 when they had already won the group, eeked out a victory in that round, and then took a total break in md 6 for a 0-0 draw (if my old brain is remembering correctly). Palmeiras has not looked dominant in that same way, but clearly have the talent and are getting wins. Given all of this River certainly seems to be the class of the competition so far and they are in a group with two very decent sides in DIM and Emelec. Of course, that match at DIM was played in ridiculous conditions but River did the business and DIM did not.

I'll be curious to see if Barcelona can continue to win, if DIM can build on two good results (although the last match only featured a strong performance during the 2nd half), and if Palmeiras can start to play for the full 90.

On a personal note, I was happy to see Nacional finally score some goals. They were very impressive last week but I expect that they will go back to playing good defense and looking like crap up front.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Botafogo were brought down to earth by the pace of Barcelona's attack but a win at home to Atlético Nacional will confirm their qualification.

It was a case of deja vu for a Felipe Melo-less Palmeiras as they went two down to Jorge Wilstermann but this time the comeback didn't materialise . Wilstermann could possibly lose their last game at Peñarol and still qualify without an away point.

Flamengo again looked impressive at a packed Maracanã beating Universidad Católica 3-1. Defenders really have problems coping with Guerrero. He and fellow Peruvian Trauco were on the scoresheet but Guerrerro could have had four or five. Atlético's 3-0 thumping at home to San Lorenzo has thrown the group wide open and the Argentinians have to be favourites to go through along with Flamengo.

Atlético Mineiro made it 10 goals in their two games against Sport Boys with an easy win in Bolivia. I started to watch this game but couldn't get into it as the stadium appeared to be almost completely empty. I switched to Iquique v Grêmio and it was looking easy for Grêmio until the referee intervened with a dodgy penalty which seemed to throw them and they ended up on the wrong end of a 2-1 scoreline. They should still qualify as their final game is at home to the pointless Venezuelans, Zamora.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

And this evening Godoy Cruz got a 1-1 draw at home to Libertad which ensures that Godoy Cruz - for the first time - and Atlético Mineiro will both be advancing from that group. Wonderful stuff. Barcelona are also guaranteed their last sixteen place, while in Godoy Cruz's and Atlético's group, Libertad can finish no lower and no higher than third, meaning they're the first team to know they'll be parachuted into the Sudamericana.

Danielmak is curious as to whether Barcelona can keep winning, so I'd just like to point out to him that never mind that, man, The fucking Strongest are on course to fucking qualify! Fifteen months ago they hadn't won outside Bolivia in 40 years, now they've done so about four or five times in the last fifteen months. I also saw a tweet earlier today from Opta, saying that The Strongest have won by 4+ goals four times in their history in the Libertadores - and three of those times have been this year. I have no idea where this improvement has come from, but it's been astonishing. Sure, one of their two remaining games is against Santos (who top their group after an entertaining 3-2 win over Independiente Santa Fe in the driving rain tonight), but that's in La Paz.

Oh, and I've seen one or two mentions that CONMEBOL are indeed considering an 'exemplary sanction' for Peñarol. We'll see.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Yes, great news about The Strongest. They also have the tournament's leading scorer, Chumacero (yes I know they've played 4 more games than most teams).

With Jorge Wilstermann likely to qualify from Group 5 (they need just a draw at Peñarol even if Tucumán achieve an unlikely win at Palmeiras), that would make two Bolivian clubs in the knock-out stage. Has this ever happened before?

In other news, Eduardo Baptista has been sacked at Palmeiras, probably more as a result of their elimination by Ponte Preta in the Paulista than their defeat in Bolivia. It could be that Cuca is about to return. I really can't think of any other credible candidates who are currently out of work.

[danielmak]

2017 Copa Libertadores

I would assume that Baptista's sacking is partially down to losing to Ponte Preta but also partially down to considering quality of play versus wins. That is, Palmeiras has won most of their Libertadores games by the skin of their teeth. A side with this much talent and that has spent this much money should be crushing the other sides in this group and that has not happened.

The Strongest are certainly having an excellent competition. I think a lot of people thought something could happen after they were able to do the business on the road during the qualifying rounds. Although they did not beat sides on part with Botafogo's opponents, they beat reputable sides in Montevideo Wanderers and Union Espanola. While I love the story, I've got some skin this group with Santa Fe and realistically it's down to Santa Fe and The Strongest since I assume that Santos will do the business.

BTW, back to Botafogo. When they beat Atl Nacional earlier in the group stage, I think they were the first side in the Libertadores to beat 3 former champions (if I'm remembering that stat correctly): Colo Colo, Olimpia, and Atl Nacional.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Re Eduardo Baptista - there was also controversy about interference from above in team selection. Baptista had a remarkable rant denying this in the post-Peñarol press conference - remarkable in that this took precedence over talking about their comeback from 2-0 down and the fact that his players had barely managed to escape the mob and return safely to their dressing room. Anyway, as predicted, Cuca is now back in charge.

Tonight Chapecoense are back in Medellín for the second leg of the Recopa. The surviving players, Jackson Follman, Neto and Alan Ruschel have visited the scene of the crash. I'm not sure I could have managed that.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

In the only Libertadores game which will be played this week, River Plate's reserves (the first team were rested for the superclásico away to Boca coming up on Sunday in the league) have drawn 1-1 at home to Emelec, and in so doing - because Emelec and DIM play one another next and therefore can't both take maximum points - have secured their place in the last sixteen with two games left in Group 3.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Fantastic night of action in Group 4 and Flamengo are out!

At the start of play, all four teams had chances of qualifying and with every goal scored the two qualifiers changed - eight times in all. When Rodinei put Flamengo ahead, their place looked assured but they conceded a late winner to San Lorenzo which meant they were dependent on events in Santiago. It didn't look promising for Atlético, fresh from a 6-2 thrashing at newly-promoted Bahia, when they went in 1-0 down at half-time but three substitutes turned the game. Eduardo Silva (yes, that one) equalised, Douglas Coutinho ran from his own half to take the lead and straight after a Universidad Católica equaliser but in the next minute the veteran Carlos Alberto won it for Atlético. So Flamengo are eliminated despite winning all three home games.

And there was a fantastic win for Chapecoense at Lanus, which means they can qualify if the beat Zulia in the final match. Even a draw might be enough.

Atlético-MG had another comfortable win against Godoy Cruz, playing some fluent passing football with star-billing going to the Ecuadorian Cazares.

Santos confirmed their qualification with a 1-1 draw at altitude against The Strongest, an impressive result considering they had 10 men for most of the game. The Bolivians now need a draw away to Santa Fe to qualify.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Botafogo through with another goal from Rodrigo Pimpão in a battling 1-0 win against Atlético Nacional.

Already this year they have eliminated four former champions - Colo Colo, Olímpia, Estudiantes and Atlético Nacional.

Oh and nice to see 42 year-old Juan Sebastian Veron come on and set up Estudiantes third goal against Barcelona.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

cantagalo wrote: And there was a fantastic win for Chapecoense at Lanus, which means they can qualify if the beat Zulia in the final match. Even a draw might be enough.

Steady on. The chap who scored the winning goal, Luiz Otávio, should have been serving the second of a three match suspension. Lanús spotted this when the team sheets were handed in, mentioned it to the officials, who told Chapecoense ... and Chapecoense decided to keep him in the starting lineup, for some reason.

It looks likely that match will be awarded as a walkover to Lanús as a result - which would put Lanús through and (if I'm remembering the table correctly) Chape out with a game to spare.

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Yes, I should have mentioned that! And looking at the evidence, I don't rate Chape's chances of keeping the three points.

[danielmak]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Both of those group 4 matches were thrilling in the end. It's hard to expect much from Atletico-PR in the knock-out stage but the side keeps hanging on. After a couple rounds, I was looking forward to a Flamengo-River final but Flamengo could not play away from home for some odd reason. The loss of Diego was big but a club this size should be able to adapt.

Nacional continued with their inability to play consistent football: one point from two games against Zulia.

I'm not a fan of the of the shift away from a seeding system for the knockout stage. My sense is that we wouldn't see a River reserve side for 3 group games, Godoy Cruz not caring how badly they were beat by Atletico-MG, or Barcelona failing to play at home against Estudiantes if all three of those sides were risking low seeds. Granted, River keeps winning so who knows.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Well, the River side who drew with Emelec in the fourth group game and thus clinched qualification was picked on the basis of resting all the starters in anticipation of their league game away to Boca Juniors a few days later - which they won, meaning that if they win games in hand they're now a point behind Boca as the title race enters the final straight. So I think once qualification was ensured, and even more so now they've won the group with a game to spare, we'd always have been likely to see them putting out second string teams. Gallardo appears to really want to win the league (the only thing he's not won since taking charge).

It's also worth bearing in mind that even having put out reserve teams for the last two and probably their remaining group game(s), River are still almost certain to finish as best group winners (even if they lose at home to DIM, a narrow defeat would only drop them to second seeds behind Atlético Mineiro, who are currently level on points with them having completed all their fixtures).

I'm not sure about Godoy Cruz either, for whom just qualifying was the historic thing and who had similar selection issues to worry about ahead of their clásico (the Argentine league had a whole round of clásicos just over a week ago). I agree the old seeding system was good, but I'm not sure teams ever cared that much about securing a high-seeded spot; as many teams won the Copa after finishing as bottom seeds after the group stage (San Lorenzo in 2014, River in 2015) as won it after being top seeds (Atlético Mineiro in whenever they won it - 2011? - and Atlético Nacional last year) - bizarrely, all in the last few years!

I think that this year, the fact the knockout stage comes in the second half of the year is going to bring even more of a sense of it just being a totally different competition once that starts. Apart from anything else I'll be astonished if Lucas Alario and Sebastián Driussi are both still River players, and that could have big consequences for who might end up being the eventual winners (which is not the same as saying I think River would be hot favourites if they can keep both).

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Oh, the other thing with the knockout stage is that the first and second legs of the last sixteen will be the best part of a month apart, and the first legs will be played before any of the leagues have got back underway following their mid-year breaks. A major exception of course being Brazil, which has no mid-year break. That ought to mean that, as long as they use some sensible squad rotation strategies (never a given, I know) the Brazilian sides should be a lot more match sharp than the teams they're playing against at first.

[danielmak]

2017 Copa Libertadores

I need to look back at the schedule but if memory serves me correct, we have big gaps between the end of the group stage and the knockout stage and then a couple different times once the knockout stage starts. I get that during WC and Copa America years there was always a ridiculous gap because the tournament ended too close to time when players were called up by national teams but this is stupid given the total calendar availability.

I noted in this thread or a general thread that I wasn't a fan of this change. I understand that the old approach: 1/2 the season for Libertadores and 1/2 the season for Sudamericana wasn't appealing to a lot of folks (personally, I liked it). And I think CONMEBOL needs to work with the seasons as they exist in South America rather than trying to follow a Euroepean calendar. At the same time, this seems to be a bit of a mess and has certainly killed off any general interest in the Sudamericana among neutrals.

With all of that said, and back to the point about seeding, it's hard to know who played for what position in the past. Obviously in the old and new systems, sides want to advance; that's more important than where one's side is seeded. But I would assume teams did want to finish as far up the standings as possible to especially avoid getting caught playing a big side that had a deep squad. Now there seems to be (as I posted last night) a fair amount of settling: we're in and that's good so run out the B-team. I assume this happened in the past but maybe not in such large numbers. I can't blame the sides but it's a bit of a bummer as a fan to watch a side like Barcelona, that has been so exciting, not even try. In the end, though, I view these things as a fan who wants to see exciting football and understand why sides are used with larger contexts in mind.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

danielmak wrote: I need to look back at the schedule but if memory serves me correct, we have big gaps between the end of the group stage and the knockout stage and then a couple different times once the knockout stage starts. I get that during WC and Copa America years there was always a ridiculous gap because the tournament ended too close to time when players were called up by national teams but this is stupid given the total calendar availability.

But there needs to be an off season. Besides, the gap between group stage and knockout stage is no longer than it is in the UEFA Champions League, and it makes much more sense to have it at this point than it does to play at breakneck pace up to the quarter-finals then take a couple of months of before reconvening for the semis. Plus spreading the fixtures out more means less congestion all round as you're not cramming a Champions League-sized fixture list (with far longer travel times than in Europe to boot) into teams' already crowded domestic calendars. In past years, to take just one example, River would be mid-table in the Argentine league because they'd have sacked it off a couple of months ago to focus on the Copa. Now they can have a good go at trying to win both, because the demands aren't as stupid.

At the same time, this seems to be a bit of a mess and has certainly killed off any general interest in the Sudamericana among neutrals.

You reckon? This neutral has watched a lot more of the Sudamericana than I otherwise would have done by this stage, because (again) having it more spread out means it's easier to pay attention to and catch various matches (although let's leave aside the fucking stupid two-month gap between first and second legs which I mentioned on the dedicated Sudamericana thread).

[Back to the Libertadores] Now there seems to be (as I posted last night) a fair amount of settling: we're in and that's good so run out the B-team. I assume this happened in the past but maybe not in such large numbers. I can't blame the sides but it's a bit of a bummer as a fan to watch a side like Barcelona, that has been so exciting, not even try. In the end, though, I view these things as a fan who wants to see exciting football and understand why sides are used with larger contexts in mind.

But it's the end of the group stage. And it's still a lot, lot better than the equivalent stage of the Champions League. One of the groups which ended last week - San Lorenzo's - had an absolutely crazy finish, and I'd be willing to bet that Group 2 (The Strongest away to Independiente Santa Fe and Santos hosting the only team who can't qualify, Sporting Cristal) will have a twist tomorrow, too. It's not like we're short of drama. If you want to see exciting football you'd be better off pointing the finger at Estudiantes' bloody silly decision to allow their 42-year-old president to actually play a bunch of matches just because he made a promise to some particularly stupid fans. Sure, he had his moments, but they'd have been a lot more likely to qualify if they'd played a proper midfield throughout.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

On Tuesday, CONMEBOL confirmed Lanús had been given a 3-0 walkover against Chapecoense, which meant Chape were already eliminated before tonight's games. In those games, Lanús got a 1-0 away win over Nacional, who were rather poor, meaning Lanús top Group 7 and Nacional go through in second, and Chape spent most of the game 1-0 down at home to Zulia, before scoring twice in about 55 seconds in stoppage time to win 2-1 and finish third, meaning they'll go into the next round of the Copa Sudamericana.

Also, Santos thrashed Sporting Cristal 4-0 to top Group 2, and The Strongest got a 1-1 draw away to Independiente Santa Fe, meaning the Bolivians go through to the last sixteen and Santa Fe go into the Sudamericana.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

River Plate had a perfectly fine goal disallowed early on tonight (Lucas Alario had a penalty saved, chested the rebound to a team-mate who stuck it in the net, and saw it ruled out for a mistaken hand ball call) and went on to lose an undisputably competitive game for the first time this year, 2-1 at home to DIM. Their only previous defeat was in the Supercopa Argentina back in February. And even this one wasn't a game that mattered - not to River, anyway.

It did matter to DIM, of course, but Emelec's 3-0 win over Melgar at the same time meant DIM's win was in vain. River win Group 3, Emelec through in second, DIM into the Copa Sudamericana.

Groups 1 and 8. In Group 1, both eliminated teams are winning at home against the two who are already through - Estudiantes are 1-0 up against Botafogo and Atlético Nacional lead 2-1 against Barcelona. At start of play Estudiantes had a three point cushion, so they'll be in the Sudamericana barring a second half collapse (33 minutes to play as I post this).

In Group 8, Grêmio are 3-0 up v Zamora, coasting towards top spot, while the nailbiter - Guaraní (10 points) v Iquique (9) is 0-0 at the start of the second half.

[Sam]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Grêmio beat Zamora 4-0; Guaraní and Iquique drew 0-0.

Group 1
1. Botafogo (10 pts)
2. Barcelona (10)
-
3. Estudiantes de La Plata (9)
-
4. Atlético Nacional (6)

Group 2
1. Santos (12 pts)
2. The Strongest (9)
-
3. Independiente Santa Fe (8)
-
4. Sporting Cristal (2)

Group 3
1. River Plate (13 pts)
2. Emelec (10)
-
3. Independiente Medellín (9)
-
4. Melgar (3)

Group 4
1. San Lorenzo (10 pts)
2. Atlético Paranaense (10)
-
3. Flamengo (9)
-
4. Universidad Católica (5)

Group 5
1. Palmeiras (13 pts)
2. Jorge Wilstermann (9)
-
3. Atlético Tucumán (7)
-
4. Peñarol (6)

Group 6
1. Atlético Mineiro (13 pts)
2. Godoy Cruz (11)
-
3. Libertad (6)
-
4. Sport Boys Warnes (2)

Group 7
1. Lanús (13 pts)
2. Nacional (8)
-
3. Chapecoense (7)
-
4. Zulia (5)

Group 8
1. Grêmio (13 pts)
2. Guaraní (11)
-
3. Deportes Iquique (10)
-
4. Zamora (0)

Teams in third go to the next round of the Copa Sudamericana.

Group winners go into pot 1; group runners-up go into pot 2. Group winners will play the second leg of the round of sixteen at home.

The quarter-finals will then be drawn, I think at random, and I believe also drawn then will be which winning quarter-finalists will play which others. From the quarter-finals onwards, the traditional 'ranking' of winners and runners-up is used to determine who gets to play their second leg at home; whichever team finished higher in the ranking will have that privilege. So, those rankings, with points then goal difference then goals scored as the criteria (as per the old system, group winners are seeds 1-8, runners up are seeds 9-16):

1. Atlético Mineiro
2. Lanús
3. Grêmio
4. River Plate
5. Palmeiras
6. Santos
7. Botafogo
8. San Lorenzo de Almagro
----------------------------------
9. Godoy Cruz Antonio Tomba
10. Guaraní
11. Emelec
12. Barcelona SC
13. Atlético Paranaense
14. The Strongest
15. Jorge Wilstermann
16. Nacional

In total, six Brazilian teams, four Argentine teams, two Ecuadorians, two Bolivians, and one each from Paraguay and Uruguay in the last sixteen.

Hard luck to Flamengo, who finished with comfortably the best goal difference in their group (+4) but only the third best points total, and even harder luck to Deportes Iquique, whose total of ten points would have been enough to qualify from six of the other groups - and was the same as two group winners (San Lorenzo and Botafogo)!

[cantagalo]

2017 Copa Libertadores

Thanks for that handy summary.

Just a few Brazil-based observations. Chapecoense and Flamengo will be kicking themselves for different reasons; Chape for their administrative incompetence, Flamengo for their inability to register a single point away from home. They were both in tough groups while Santos, Grêmio and Atlético-MG coasted through much weaker challenges.

Botafogo managed the rare feat of moving from second place to first despite losing to Estudiantes, thanks to Barcelona's heavier defeat at Atlético Nacional. Atlético-PR were the surprise qualifiers from possibly the toughest group, considering how poor they've been in the State Championships and League. They've now appointed Eduardo Baptista, recently departed from Palmeiras.

And it's Palmeiras who are my tip for the trophy, as Cuca is back and they have the strongest squad in Brazil, even if they weren't firing on all cylinders in the group stage. At any rate, I can't see beyond a winner from Brazil or Argentina - as Sam's table shows, they occupy the top 9 qualifying places.