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**danielmak** · 01-02-2017, 05:37

2017 Copa Libertadores

The first round qualifiers finished last Friday. Because CAN 2017 has been keeping me busy, I have only had time to watch two of the three ties. It's been some exciting stuff so far.

Montevideo Wanderers beat U de Sucre of Bolivia in a shootout. Both matches had penalties, a lot of goal scoring opportunities, and a lot of goals. U de Sucre looked good at home but I had a feeling Wanderers would take it and they were dominant in the second leg.

The dark horse finalist from last season, Independiente del Valle, was out on away goals, was down a man, and with seconds left in the second leg scored to advance. They deserved it over two legs since Dep Municipal of Peru seemed more interested in kicking the del Valle players than playing football in the first leg.

I hope to watch the other tie during the next two days. I'll report back if anything interesting happens. On paper I would expect Dep Tachira to win that tie (or that they already have since it's done) but I say that because I've never heard of the other team.

**ursus arctos** · 01-02-2017, 13:12

2017 Copa Libertadores

Have you ponied up for Fox Soccer 2Go?

I couldn't find the matches on their standard streaming platform.

**Incandenza** · 01-02-2017, 14:13

2017 Copa Libertadores

It looks like Fox Deportes and FS1/2 in the USA are not covering the tournament, so the only way we can see the games (legally) is through Fox Soccer 2Go. Complete bullshit.

**cantagalo** · 01-02-2017, 18:19

2017 Copa Libertadores

I shall be making my 2017 Libertadores debut tonight with Botafogo v Colo Colo.

**danielmak** · 04-02-2017, 07:45

2017 Copa Libertadores

Sorry, I was slow to return because I wanted to avoid spoilers. Fox seems to be pushing the games to the standard definition streaming option. If it was HD and I could get it through Roku with some kind of on-demand viewing options (as is the case with ESPN3) then I would do it. But I'm not willing to pay for what they have now. Last year was amazing in the US. After a decade+ of 3-4 live games per week on Fox Deportes and the rest shown on delay in edited form, Fox made use of Fox Soccer Plus as an added option. I think they only showed 4-5 games in edited form on delay because they could cover most games between these two channels. That golden moment was followed with 0 games shown on TV during the Copa Sudamericana and now they are following the same trend. I guess repeats of 2-month old CL matches or 2 week old FA Cup matches are more important. Given all of this, I will likely be slow to share my 2 cents about the matches because I have to wait for a guy I know to upload HD files of Brazilian TV broadcasts. This process is also messing up my Spanish education. Haha.

Anyway, so far I have watched 4 games:

Junior won away at Carabobo (0-1). I was expecting more from the Colombian side that has been strong in the league, although not strong enough to win the title, in the past year+. They also did well in the Sudamericana until Chapecoense tore them apart in a rain-soaked match. Either way, a road win without giving up any goals should put them in good shape to advance. But Carabobo definintely had their fair share of possession and could have easily come out with a draw or even won this match. Junior have a new manager, whose name I can't remember, but he was with Tolima for the past few years (a slightly smaller "big hair" style than Valderama and a love of the half unbuttoned shirt). I can't say much about Carabobo since the last time I remember seeing them play was probably the 2007 Sudamericana (if I'm remembering correctly).

Atletico-PR seemed to be in control for most of their match against Millionarios, although they only won 1-0. I can't say much about this one since I was working with the game on in the background.

The Botafogo-Colo Colo match was a little strange. Botafogo clearly dominated the first half, with what seemed like a high percentage of possession and some solid chances. The second goal, though, was a total fluke. A Colo Colo defender tried to clear the ball from the 6-yard box and kicked it into his own teammate. The ball deflected straight back into the goal. Then in the second half, Colo Colo either woke up or Botafogo decided to take a break. Colo Colo scored a decently-worked goal but the ball seemed to move in slow motion from a bad angle and that was that in terms of goals. Botafogo won 2-1 but really it should have been a more lopsided scoreline. I don't know what to think about the return leg. Colo Colo had been down for about 5 years until about 2 years ago. Then they were back in the Sudamericana and then last year's Libertadores. But they couldn't get out of the group (granted Ind del Valle were playing way beyond their means last season). Colo Colo qualified by winning the Copa de Chile if I remember correctly but didn't win either semester in the league. I'd expect Botafogo to win this one but cantagalo will have more to say about their qualities. I assume they might invest something in this tournament early on since the State championship will be filled with some games that don't require their full attention.

Montevideo Wanderers get by one Bolivian side in U de Sucre and are drawn against another in The Strongest. The Strongest won 0-2 in Montevideo at what looked like an empty stadium minus a few Strongest fans. I have no idea what was happening there. The game seemed to be played early but it's not like Wanderers fans should be so complacent that they don't need to show up. But the lack of fans was mirrored in Wanderers' play. They also didn't seem to show up and The Strongest seemed to be much more interested in chasing down loose balls, trying to make things happen, and trying to advance. I can't see Wanderers coming back from an 0-2 deficit having to play at altitude in Bolivia. At least the deficit in the first round could be overcome with a home second leg.

I am currently 21 minutes into Dep Capita (who I can now say are from Paraguay and proved my prediction of Dep Tachira advancing to be wrong) v. Universitario. It's 0-1 after 22 minutes and I won't finish watching this one until tomorrow night since it's almost 2am here. I will try to get to Ind del Valle-Olimpia tomorrow as well. I have a couple other matches from my friend but doubt I will have time for those.

@cantagalo: I sent you a PM about state championships in Rio. A friend of mine will be there for Carnivale. Let me know if you have any advice for him regarding stadia that might be in safer parts of the city. He follows a 2nd division side in Uruguay so it's not like he needs to see the big clubs--just a safe experience in and around the stadium/stadia.

**cantagalo** · 04-02-2017, 14:47

2017 Copa Libertadores

danielmak wrote:
Atletico-PR seemed to be in control for most of their match against Millionarios, although they only won 1-0. I can't say much about this one since I was working with the game on in the background.

The Botafogo-Colo Colo match was a little strange. Botafogo clearly dominated the first half, with what seemed like a high percentage of possession and some solid chances. The second goal, though, was a total fluke. A Colo Colo defender tried to clear the ball from the 6-yard box and kicked it into his own teammate. The ball deflected straight back into the goal. Then in the second half, Colo Colo either woke up or Botafogo decided to take a break. Colo Colo scored a decently-worked goal but the ball seemed to move in slow motion from a bad angle and that was that in terms of goals. Botafogo won 2-1 but really it should have been a more lopsided scoreline. I don't know what to think about the return leg. Colo Colo had been down for about 5 years until about 2 years ago. Then they were back in the Sudamericana and then last year's Libertadores. But they couldn't get out of the group (granted Ind del Valle were playing way beyond their means last season). Colo Colo qualified by winning the Copa de Chile if I remember correctly but didn't win either semester in the league. I'd expect Botafogo to win this one but cantagalo will have more to say about their qualities. I assume they might invest something in this tournament early on since the State championship will be filled with some games that don't require their full attention.

@cantagalo: I sent you a PM about state championships in Rio. A friend of mine will be there for Carnivale. Let me know if you have any advice for him regarding stadia that might be in safer parts of the city. He follows a 2nd division side in Uruguay so it's not like he needs to see the big clubs--just a safe experience in and around the stadium/stadia.

Hi Daniel - it might just be me being very stupid but I can't work out how to receive or send PMs on this new board. Any advice? If I can find a way of receiving your PM, I'll be happy to help!

Just a couple of interesting points (well, only to you and me probably) about the two Brazilian games you watched. Atl�tico's winner was a penalty scored by Grafite who was signed from relegated Santa Cruz and is now 37 years old. The lifespan of the average Brazilian footballer is rather longer than his European counterpart, which probably tells you something about the standard of football. Watch out for Z� Roberto of Palmeiras who is now 43.

Botafogo's first goal was scored by Airton and was his first in 74 games for them. I don't know who was more surprised - me, the sell-out crowd or Airton himself. And Paredes the author of unfortunate own goal also scored what could be the vital away goal for Colo Colo.

**Incandenza** · 04-02-2017, 15:25

2017 Copa Libertadores

cantagalo: if you click on your user name next to a post, it will bring up your profile page. There is a button to get to messages on there.

**cantagalo** · 04-02-2017, 15:34

2017 Copa Libertadores

Thanks! Got it now. Reply to Daniel on its way.

**danielmak** · 04-02-2017, 21:45

2017 Copa Libertadores

I guess it doesn't help that there is not any notice when an PM is sent. I figured there would be a dot or something like on the old board. Now one would need to go right to the inbox, like checking email, which isn't going to be a move most of us make if we don't normally send or receive PMs.

I thought that first Botafogo goals was a good one, though, even if he's not a normal goal scorer. The cross was perfect and he beat two defenders to head in a perfectly placed goal.

Gol TV in the US seems to be showing about 2 state championship games each weekend (either 1 from Sao Paulo and 1 from Rio or 2 from Sao Paulo). I'm already behind with last week's Rio match still on my DVR, but will see what I can watch over the next few weeks.

**cantagalo** · 04-02-2017, 23:59

2017 Copa Libertadores

If your time is limited, go for the Paulista games. The quality is likely to be marginally better.

Message sent, by the way.

**danielmak** · 05-02-2017, 01:56

2017 Copa Libertadores

Paulista games seem to be their priority. I think we've got two this weekend and nothing from Rio.

FYI, I got the PM and wrote back. There is a small box at the bottom that says "trash original" that is automatically checked so once you send a PM, you can't see that it was sent because it gets trashed. I try to uncheck that when I remember. Maybe this was the same on the old board but everything is much more difficult to read with this re-design. I think everything was done by people with 40/40 vision or 60-inch monitors.

**Sam** · 05-02-2017, 07:24

2017 Copa Libertadores

Yep, that box was there on the old board too.

danielmak wrote: The Strongest won 0-2 in Montevideo at what looked like an empty stadium minus a few Strongest fans. I have no idea what was happening there. The game seemed to be played early but it's not like Wanderers fans should be so complacent that they don't need to show up.

To be fair, Wanderers are a Uruguayan club who aren't Pe�arol or Nacional, and the game was played (presumably for ground eligibility reasons) at the Centenario, so any crowd would have looked miniscule. The broadcast would have looked rather kinder if the game had been at Wanderers' stadium, which I've been to and which is absolutely tiny.

**cantagalo** · 09-02-2017, 08:37

2017 Copa Libertadores

Enjoyed the Colo Colo v Botafogo return leg. Courageous performance by Fogo with a late Rodrigo Pimp�o goal ensuring qualification. It doesn't get any easier for them. To reach the group stage they'll have to beat either Independente del Valle, last year's beaten finalists or Olimpia.

And Atl�tico scraped through on penalties against Milion�rios.

**Sam** · 23-02-2017, 23:17

2017 Copa Libertadores

We completely ignored (on here) the first legs of the third qualifying round. Atl�tico Tucum�n lost 1-0 away to Junior but are now 3-0 up at half time in the return. I missed almost the whole first half because I didn't notice the time (and also because I was watching the channel I assumed the game would be on later, but in fact it's on a different channel).

**cantagalo** · 23-02-2017, 23:53

2017 Copa Libertadores

I was just about to post about last night's Paraguay v Brazil games!

Botafogo scraped through on penalties against Ol�mpia thanks to Paraguayan keeper Gatito Fernandez. He saved three of them after coming on as sub for Helton Leite. He'll have enjoyed this as he's a Cerro Porte�o supporter. Good to see Roque Santa Cruz turning out for Ol�mpia - one for the 'where are they now' thread?

Atl�tico-PR also qualified against Deportiva Capiat� with a narrow 1-0 win after a 3-3 draw in the home leg. So a quarter of the last 32 are Brazilian teams.

**Sam** · 24-02-2017, 00:47

2017 Copa Libertadores

Atl�tico won 3-1 (3-2 agg.) on the night, to reach the Copa Libertadores group stage 14 months after winning promotion to the Argentine top flight.

The Strongest are 2-0 up against Uni�n Espa�ola in La Paz. The first leg of that ended 1-1. The Strongest, remember, got their first Libertadores away win in 40 years during last year's group stage (against S�o Paulo), and got another in the last round against Montevideo Wanderers. Their away performances have really picked up all of a sudden. I think even the draws they'd recorded in that 40 year interim were in places like Quito, where their comfort at altitude obviously took away part of the advantage Quito sides normally have over other teams.

**danielmak** · 01-03-2017, 08:31

2017 Copa Libertadores

I was expecting Deportiva Capiata to be this season's Ind del Valle after that shocking comeback against Universitario and then a solid first leg in Brazil.

The Strongest looked excellent against Union Espanola and Atletico Tucuman's suprsing thrashing of Junior reminded me of Chapecoense's similar home win in the Sudamericana. I expected Junior to be the one team to sail through these rounds given their quality in a very up Colombian league.

Predicting a winner in this competition is foolish given the selling off of players and now that this is a year-long tournament, such predictions will be even more difficult. Of course, I'm pulling for Nacional (URU) and Santa Fe (secondarily) with U de Chile out of the mix.

**cantagalo** · 07-03-2017, 14:26

2017 Copa Libertadores

Group stage starts tonight.

Chapecoense make their debut with a trip to Venezuela to play Zulia, who, I confess, I've never heard of, but they are apparently the Venezuelan cup holders. Chape have got a makeshift team which is a mixture of youngsters and pretty average journeymen. West Ham fans may remember Wellington Paulista; that could give you an idea of the standard... However, Wagner Mancini is a decent manager and I hope he can get the best out of them.

The match I'm most looking forward to this week is Flamengo v San Lorenzo which, barring any last-minute problems, will see the Maracan� back in action for the first time this year. Don't expect a perfect playing surface.

**cantagalo** · 08-03-2017, 19:21

2017 Copa Libertadores

So Chapecoense win their first ever Libertadores match. Here's the goals with the radio commentary of Rafael Henzel, one of the six survivors of the crash. I found it incredibly moving.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ANX-rAmghPM

A great game in Curitiba as Atl�tico-PR drew 2-2 with Unversidad Cat�lica. Four really well-worked goals but Atl�tico let a two goal lead slip in the last 5 minutes. There was still time for Noir, the goalscorer, to be sent off for over-celebrating and for Pablo to hit the bar for Atl�tico in the final seconds.

I hope tonight's matches are as good.

**Sam** · 09-03-2017, 04:14

2017 Copa Libertadores

There is a reasonable suspicion that Argentina's sides have been hamstrung by the long delay in their league restarting, since their Brazilian opponents tonight are already well up to speed thanks to the state championships. That suspicion might help explain why San Lorenzo were so utterly awful against an admittedly very tasty-looking Flamengo, who blew them away 4-0 and could have had more (they had a penalty saved at 3-0).

If it's really the case, though, Godoy Cruz and Atl�tico Tucum�n are going to tear up trees in this group stage once they gain some rhythm. Both got 1-1 draws at home, Godoy Cruz against Atl�tico Mineiro and Atl�tico Tucum�n against Brazilian champions Palmeiras, and at least in Atl�tico's case the draw was if anything rather harsh on them, even if they were up against ten men from around the twentieth minute onwards.

Of course, in Atl�tico's case they've already had two qualifying rounds to get some competitive rhythm up, but even so considering the stature of the opposition I was impressed. They're not being cowed in their first ever continental campaign.

Tomorrow night I've been invited to Lan�s v Nacional, which should be fun (I'm hoping Lan�s take a leaf out of Godoy Cruz's and Atl�tico's book rather than San Lorenzo's, obviously).

**cantagalo** · 09-03-2017, 16:19

2017 Copa Libertadores

Kid in a sweetshop experience for me last night. Started with Barcelona v PSG, then Godoy Cruz v Atl�tico and finished off with Flamengo v San Lorenzo. Too tired to write anything after that and I woke with a sugar rush comedown.

Nothing better than a packed Maracan� with Flamengo in the Libertadores. They've been looking for a proper number 10 for years but Diego's arrival last year has transformed them from a pretty dull workmanlike bunch into a team that's well worth watching. I'm not sure why the San Lorenzo keeper positioned himself by his left hand post for Diego's free kick. All Diego had to do was get it over the wall Then the floodgates opened. Good to see Coloccini turning out for San Lorenzo.

Godoy Cruz v Atl�tico was a relatively dull affair. Atl�tico are still too reliant on old lags such as Robinho and Fred and they look weaker than last year.

In contrast, Palmeiras have strengthened their already strong squad. They're not the easiest on the eye, (and the signing of Felipe Melo won't change that) but they've added more goalpower with Willian from Cruzeiro, Borja from holders Atl�tico Nacional and the excellent Keno from Santa Cruz. They look the likeliest to improve Brazil's miserable recent Libertadores record. Just saw the highlights of this one and enjoyed seeing Atl�tico Tucum�n and their stadium for the first time. Liked their Argentina shirts as well.

**Sam** · 09-03-2017, 19:13

2017 Copa Libertadores

It's actually Argentina who play in Atl�tico Tucum�n shirts (they were the first team, club or national in any sport, to pick the colours of the Argentine flag for their kits).

**ursus arctos** · 09-03-2017, 21:06

2017 Copa Libertadores

Spot the fellow who runs a pub quiz

Bravo. Even I did not know that.

**danielmak** · 10-03-2017, 19:06

2017 Copa Libertadores

I read up to the point where I am mostly caught up in my viewing but have skipped the last page of the thread since I want to avoid spoilers for a couple games I still want to watch (including Strongest-Santa Fe).

I'm excited that Nacional were able to get a road win at Lanus. It wasn't a pretty win but certainly was a good defensive display. I don't recall a single Lanus shot on goal, although I assume there had to be a few. I'm worried about Nacional's wastefulness in the final third. Almost every counterattack that should have favored Nacional ended up with the worst choice possible. I'd like to think that this was a product of Nacional still easing their way into the season, but unlike Lanus, Nacional are about to play their 4th (or maybe 5th) league match. In all reality, this is a team that should get through the group stage depending on Chape's skills but will likely crash and burn after that.

Of the games I watched, which are all of Tuesday's games, most of Wednesday's games, and only the Lanus-Nacional game from Thursday, Flamengo were the class side. This should be a very solid team but we'll know for sure when they aren't playing an out of match shape San Lorenzo. Given their qualities in the league last season and what I have seen in the 2 or 3 state championship matches, they are deep enough and skilled enough to be title contenders. Although the Jorge Wilstermann result over Penarol shows an equal degree of dominance in terms of goals, that was not an equally dominant performance. Jorge Wilstermann deserved that win, but there was one penalty (maybe two) and some sloppy goals. I wouldn't be surprised if Jorge Wilstermann didn't score on every near attempt. Penarol were awful but Jorge Wilstermann won't be repeating that scoreline given their (lack of) quality. Anyway, I will be curious to see if Flamengo are this year's Atl Nacional or this year's Racing (a team that was very, very good in the 2016 Libertadores for a few rounds and then started to fade).

EDIT: Santa Fe were very poor in Bolivia. The Strongest looked very good at the back, scored on two nicely worked goals that showed some good tight passing, and seemed to make the most of their opportunities. Santa Fe couldn't convert chances and looked like amateurs during the two goals (including one that started with a throw in). I'm sure altitude was a factor but I worry about the lack of offensive threat with this side. Last year The Strongest started well but faded. Next week's game away will show something about their ability to do well away (although they did look very good in the qualifiers away).

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2017 Copa Libertadores

2017 Copa Libertadores

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