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    The NYT reporting doesn't say that Trump's approval rating is historically high among "Republicans and Republican leaning". It's historically high among "Republicans". Which, as your link shows, is 26% of the population. Nobody realistically expects a meaningful number of those 26% to do anything other than vote for Trump or Republican party line ticket. I guess you're right that among that 26% support for him is getting stronger. I just don't think we should really care. Even when they didn't approve of Trump they basically voted for him, his policies, and his team. So the marginal increase in "approval" among this faction is basically a nothingburger that nobody should care about unless they're running in an internal Republican race that requires 90% of the vote.

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      Agreed. Time and energy would be better spent doing things to encourage Democrats and Democratic leaning independents to register and vote.

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        Originally posted by Femme Folle View Post
        Has anyone met Bruno in person? I need some assurance that he(it?) isn't a Russian propaganda not.
        Naw, I’ve fifty plus pages of JP thread battle scars to prove his realness. 4Real, just seeing from Both Sides

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          What drags to Overton window rightwards is following Trump and the Trumpistes. It's accepting them and their arguments. It's engaging with them and trying to find a common ground with them. They've already vanished off to the right. If other people go chasing them over into that gruesome territory, that's what moves the window. If instead the left and the center remain as the left and center, if we're not trying to have a rational dialogue with the racist fuckwittery and corrupt fascist bullshit, then the window doesn't move.

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            Yeah I’m aware irony isn’t something you do to your shirts, was just adding leaden levity.

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              Originally posted by Bruno
              She knows I'm a real person, I've been here since 2008, she was just belittling.
              Belittling? I would never.

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                Originally posted by Bruno
                I haven't made a peep about compromising left-wing or humanist values or debating racism. I'm still convinced that polarization instigated by the right drifting rightwards, which is what any system of thought does when there isn't a strong enough counterweight, is now having a corrosive effect on the left.
                I must have misunderstood you. It appeared that you were concerned that the "left" (by which I think you mean America's center-right media and current opposition) was making the racists and shitwads who support Trump "dig in" with their support. And that the left should be doing something about it, by being less mean about the racism, corruption and shitwaddery in the Trump administration and about the racism and shitwaddery in the Trump support.

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                  Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                  What drags to Overton window rightwards is following Trump and the Trumpistes. It's accepting them and their arguments. It's engaging with them and trying to find a common ground with them. They've already vanished off to the right. If other people go chasing them over into that gruesome territory, that's what moves the window. If instead the left and the center remain as the left and center, if we're not trying to have a rational dialogue with the racist fuckwittery and corrupt fascist bullshit, then the window doesn't move.
                  This. That should be on a fucking T-shirt. For the larger lad or lass, maybe.

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                    Influenza pandemic this winter, our best hope, half the Brexit gammon demographic in Engerlund/idiot Unionists or middle aged/elderly Lexit fanciers in Scotland, half the trump base wiped out. They send the kids to wars without blinking, let’s have God’s own demographic corrective wash over them before the mid terms/no deal Brexit.

                    Be sad to bury grandad, but one less on the shitpile vote side.

                    I thought dating again and increasing social interaction/glorious heatwave might lighten me up. But fuck, this world is dark, no matter what Ser Pangloss Sensible Pinker and pals think.
                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 00:40.

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                      Originally posted by Bruno
                      I'm not "concerned" that left-wing rhetoric and tactics have emboldened the right to dig in, I'm just treating it as plain fact. They'll gladly acknowledge as much themselves. We can both agree that their reaction is wrong on the merits and that they're making childish excuses for a reprehensible stance. As for what the left can "do about it," my instincts tell me the answer isn't zero. It depends on the case and it doesn't reduce to a question of "being mean." Since this started over the Sanders restaurant affair, as the owner I might not have opted for the slow pitch over the plate of kicking her out. Since I helped create the 50 pages on Jordan Peterson, I can say again that I see it as a textbook case of left-wing activists setting the table for his international fame with ill-thought-out protest methods. It just depends on the case.
                      If you don’t fight them they win anyway. Their shrill bullshit is controlling the narrative thanks to news editors thinking the same as you. Maybe in five years or so you’ll be done with defining yourself from the left and start taking the National Review without a Both Sides Excuse.
                      Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 01:03.

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                        Naw man, you’re like Emma Goldman out here.

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                          Aw ffs. I picked her cos you’re the least Goldman figure ever. You’re barely fucking Beatrice and Stanley Webb. The hateful eugenicist proto Sensible Fabian cunts. And that shite Shaw proto fash cunt and his shite plays no one can stand anymore. Ok, you’re like Vince Cable’s Cautious Uncle. Except more forgiving of Tory/far right bs than a fucking idiot Lib Dem in the Tory coalition. If you’re too scared to insult them or call them out they walk over you. Fer reals there are now two JP threads. Trump had better act unexpected and mad soon, get us away from the Eternal Circle.
                          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 01:02.

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                            Originally posted by Bruno
                            I'm not "concerned" that left-wing rhetoric and tactics have emboldened the right to dig in, I'm just treating it as plain fact. They'll gladly acknowledge as much themselves. We can both agree that their reaction is wrong on the merits and that they're making childish excuses for a reprehensible stance. As for what the left can "do about it," my instincts tell me the answer isn't zero. It depends on the case and it doesn't reduce to a question of "being mean." Since this started over the Sanders restaurant affair, as the owner I might not have opted for the slow pitch over the plate of kicking her out. Since I helped create the 50 pages on Jordan Peterson, I can say again that I see it as a textbook case of left-wing activists setting the table for his international fame with ill-thought-out protest methods. It just depends on the case.
                            I don't think the left should care about the maniacs digging in. They're already maniacs. If the Dean Hellers of this world "dig in" and vote for all the Trumpy stuff, unlike previously where they didn't like Trump and voted for all the Trumpy stuff, I think it makes fuck all difference. The left should not worry about the people on the far right digging in. They shouldn't do anything about the kinds of people who get their backs up when people point out that they voted for a racist fuckwit who uses literal child abuse as a tool for deterring scary dark skinned people.

                            If those people get their backs up about it, so the fuck what?

                            You should instead not let the Overton window move into some halfway position between child abuse and not child abuse. You should call out racist child abuse because that's still what it is. If the Trumpy Wankers think this is very very mean, and we shouldn't use such mean words, it really shouldn't bother us.

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                              What doesn’t work? He tried to reason with the cunts pointlessly till the first term was almost over. If there is ever a president from something like the centre left again, they would do well to ignore his pretty triangles that make as much sense in today’s world as fucking Blair’s.
                              Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 01:17.

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                                Originally posted by Bruno
                                SB, like I said it depends on the case. I'm 1000% in favor of calling out the racist child abuse and keeping the window where it is. It needs to be opposed with every available tool that might have a positive effect. Kicking Sanders out of a restaurant is probably not one of those tools, though I'm sure it felt good at the time.

                                The digging in that I'm worried about isn't with regard to strongly held political positions but rather mutual animosity and a total undermining of trust that will prevent either side from working with the other again.
                                Mr Godwin himself is giving us permission to use nazi comparisons against this admin. Would barring Goebels from a bistro with Jewish staff be unnecessary provocation in Both Sides world?

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                                  Some women of Berlin (gentile) married to Jews stopped their spouses being stuck in camps and killed. By open protest. The nazi regime was quite vulnerable to internal dissent and unseemly Scenes.

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                                    Yeah but elsewhere (Prague) they took their children and put them in a special 'holiday camp,' where their parents couldn't see them and they died of disease and starvation. Are we very far away from that?

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                                      Originally posted by Bruno
                                      Reasoning is the only way a democracy is going to work, therefore you have to try to reason. If you fail you fail. Obama certainly accomplished more than a firebrand would have. I'm including his relative lack of counterproductive fuck-ups in that, which I credit to his even temperament.
                                      Reasoning is pointing out that the people they voted for and the stuff those people are doing are utterly vile and deplorable and pointing out why. That is what reasoning is. Donald Trump is deplorable. Ryan Zinke is deplorable. Scott Pruitt is deplorable. Jeff Sessions is deplorable. Stephen Miller is deplorable. Tom Price is deplorable. Child abuse is deplorable. Giving protected public land to oil companies for kickbacks is deplorable. Trying to prevent people of one religion from travelling to America is deplorable. Profiteering off advanced knowledge of changes to drugs law is deplorable. Trying to reduce the opportunities for minorities to vote is deplorable. These people are deplorable. Their actions are deplorable. It should be pointed out, and explained that it's deplorable. This is what reasoning is, at this point. If, having pointed these things out, the right wing digs in, then there's no more reasoning to be done.

                                      Saying "Well, I see your point of view, perhaps we should discuss these issues more to see how deplorable they are" is what moves the Overton window. Saying "Oh, let's compromise and say half of these things are deplorable and half aren't" is what moves the Overton window.

                                      If someone can't see that Jeff Sessions is deplorable in the first place, what does it matter that this person then "digs in"?

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                                        There are children already dead from ICE’s actions I’m sure. Kids get sick real quick. We are now talking lice infestations, and worse. Why can’t Congressmen get access to these sites? Let alone the kids who disappear to god knows what new hell. Which makes it all the more imperative to stand ground. Denmark saved all but 50 Jews from about 3000 with the collusion and treason against their High Command of the locally based German navy. Bulgaria more or less told the Nazis to fuck off re rounding up their Jews (outside the Jewish populations in parts of Yugoslavia/Greece etc they were given by the Nazis, where they couldn’t be arsed, not saying they weren’t cunts).
                                        Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 01:50.

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                                          The Nazis couldn’t readily do fuck all without willing collusion. By snitches and cunts, the fucking base.
                                          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 01:51.

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                                            Food rations in these private prisons for kids or grown ups will guarantee malnutrition as well. The shareholders in such companies should feel the pressure to divest, I don’t care if the pressure is non violent or not. They are abetting a slow murder.

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                                              Both Sides again. Beautiful.

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                                                Most informants were unprompted in Germany, and seemed more fuelled by spite toward their neighbors than fear.
                                                Last edited by Lang Spoon; 25-06-2018, 02:00.

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                                                  Often the fairly small SS bureaucracy was overwhelmed by the shit the fabled Swabian Housewife would grass up or make up to them.

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                                                    Trump’s boys don’t really need informants and scary Boss Uniforms to get the juice. They have the internet.

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