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    Aren't government shut-downs the mark of shithole countries?

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      Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
      I think it was widely accepted that Jones would not vote the Warren, or even Booker, line completely. That he'd vote closer to Heitkamp or Manchin.

      If you think this is indistinguishable from Roy Moore you're clearly an idiot.
      Yes, clearly

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        Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
        I think it was widely accepted that Jones would not vote the Warren, or even Booker, line completely. That he'd vote closer to Heitkamp or Manchin.

        If you think this is indistinguishable from Roy Moore you're clearly an idiot.
        The problem with this thinking is Jones will get his ass handed to him by Luther Strange no matter what in 2020, so might as well swing for the fences.

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          But maybe if the Democrats act like just moderate Republicans, then they will appeal to moderate Republican voters and win everything in 2018 and 2020.

          What could go wrong <cough> <cough>

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            You realise that he's representing Alabama?

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              Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
              The problem with this thinking is Jones will get his ass handed to him by Luther Strange no matter what in 2020, so might as well swing for the fences.
              I don't know. Democrats have got governors re-elected in places like Arkansas and Kentucky recently. The Kentucky bloke expanded Medicaid but had to make it sound like it wasn't anything to do with Obama. A few bits of harmless independence won't harm Jones.

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                Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                You realise that he's representing Alabama?
                He's going to lose in the next election against a non-paedophile Republican candidate.

                So he may as well act like a Democrat. Who knows, if he delivers, the people who turned out to put him into office might even show up again next time around.

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                  Virtually every red state Democrat I can think of does what he's doing. Vote for most stuff, do the odd bit of "bipartisanship" or "independence". With incumbency, they feel they have a crack at re-election.

                  You're always so critical of the mainstream Democrat politicians, but don't see why someone like Jones might want to put a bit of distance.

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                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                    You're always so critical of the mainstream Democrat politicians, but don't see why someone like Jones might want to put a bit of distance.
                    He was elected on the back of a well organised get out the vote surge in the black communities of Alabama. If he wants them to turn out again next time around, then it would be helpful if he didn't put a bit of distance between himself and their interests.

                    Btw, "mainstream democrat" was once FDR and LBJ. Essentially what Bernie Sanders is now. But the Overton window has moved somewhat since then.
                    Last edited by anton pulisov; 22-01-2018, 14:51.

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                      Jones doesn't have to be Ralph Yarborough, and I certainly wouldn't parrot what Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer tell him, but playing scared of his shadow as a Democrat is not what is going to get Democrats back in power in red states.

                      People don't like cowards, and Jones needs to be bold to have any chance of holding on to his seat. He needs to keep black turnout sky high and get some whites on his side next time, the kind who either sat out the election or voted Nick Saban because the Alabama GOP isn't going to let Roy Moore win the primary again.

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                        Jones was elected mostly by black constituent turnout. As it happens, many of those people are dependent on CHIP, funding for which is about to run out and which was attached to this spending bill. Very few of his constituents are DACA/Dreamers. Arguably, by voting for this bill he was exactly voting for his constituents. And - in addition - there was no harm in voting for this when it was never going to pass anyway.

                        Of course, there's no reason not to have a clean vote on CHIP funding, except to use it as blackmail against the likes of Jones. But it's effective blackmail, which is why Jones voted for it.

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                          Senate vote 81-18 to reopen the government.

                          What SB said about Jones.

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                            I think this turns out to be a good move from the Democrats. They get CHIP funding, and they have Mitch's promise to get DACA on the Senate floor before Feb 8th. If Mitch fails, they have their leverage back - and this time the Republicans don't have CHIP as blackmail.

                            Meanwhile, it allows the government to continue running on CRs - they claim to not want this, but I'm pretty sure the alternative is to have a full on Republican budget, so doddering along in this half-hearted manner is probably preferable.

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                              They get CHIP funding, and they have Mitch's promise to get DACA on the Senate floor before Feb 8th. If Mitch fails, they have their leverage back - and this time the Republicans don't have CHIP as blackmail.
                              Not sure how Mitch could fail to get it on the Senate floor, other than deliberately. The problem is it doesn't matter what Mitch does in the Senate if the House doesn't play ball, which it obviously won't.

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                                True enough - but the Senate could never get a House guarantee on anything, could they? There's no play from Senate Democrats that guarantees a bill on the House floor, so this is the most they could ever get.

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                                  Originally posted by antoine polus View Post
                                  He was elected on the back of a well organised get out the vote surge in the black communities of Alabama. If he wants them to turn out again next time around, then it would be helpful if he didn't put a bit of distance between himself and their interests.

                                  Btw, "mainstream democrat" was once FDR and LBJ. Essentially what Bernie Sanders is now. But the Overton window has moved somewhat since then.
                                  That's not really true.

                                  As Matt Bruenig points out, the high black turnout was a factor, but not as much of a factor as the massive swing away from the GOP among whites compared to other recent similar elections in Alabama. He only one by a point or so, so both parts matter, but it suggests that grassroots activism among black Alabamans isn't going to be enough to win many elections in which the GOP doesn't run a moron who is also a pedophile.

                                  http://mattbruenig.com/2017/12/15/alabama-part-ii/


                                  Given that his chances of winning again are so slim, he should just swing for the fences, I believe.

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                                    True enough - but the Senate could never get a House guarantee on anything, could they? There's no play from Senate Democrats that guarantees a bill on the House floor, so this is the most they could ever get.
                                    Well, they could get a commitment from Ryan, like they got from McConnell. It wouldn't be worth a whole lot, but the commitment they've got is completely worthless.

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                                      Have any of you met Trumpy Bear yet?

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                                        We've alerted our lawyers

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                                          "Have Trumpy Bear commemorate your fallen heroes?????"

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                                            it;s like bitcoin.

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                                              It's a sad state of affairs when I genuinely can't tell if something is sincere or satire. 80% of the Trumpy Bear ad looks like satire, but there's no pay-off at the end. You think that having a veteran named "Warholic" is a giveaway, right? And yet none of the other names seem satirical...

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                                                Who were the 18 who voted against?

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                                                  Gideon Rachman on why Trump is a(n evil) genius:



                                                  When Donald Trump described himself as a “very stable genius”, even some of his supporters sniggered. The US president is clearly not a genius in any normal sense of the word. Rex Tillerson, his own secretary of state, is reputed to have described his boss as a “f***ing moron”.

                                                  But Mr Trump has a legitimate claim to three other kinds of “genius”: political genius, instinctive genius and evil genius. Moral disgust with Mr Trump means that his opponents are reluctant to credit him with any kind of intelligence or success. But that kind of thinking, while understandable, is also dangerous. It is one reason why the president frequently wrongfoots his opponents.

                                                  As Mr Trump pointed out, when making his own immodest claim to “genius”, he achieved something unprecedented in modern American history. He was a complete political outsider who won the presidency on his first attempt. His enemies would point to the current government shutdown to suggest that the president is nonetheless completely unfit to govern. But Trump supporters will respond by pointing to a growing economy, and the passage of the first large-scale tax reform in more than 30 years.

                                                  Mr Trump campaigned on themes — protectionism, isolationism, opposition to immigration — that the political establishment was convinced were sure-fire losers, and even un-American. His political instincts told him otherwise. Steve Bannon, Mr Trump’s estranged campaign manager, was the man with the grand theories about economics and culture, larded with references to obscure and sinister European philosophers. Mr Trump was guided by an instinct that told him that he could smash taboos and not just fail to pay a price, but actually be rewarded.

                                                  His ideas about race and immigration are nasty — but they are also widely shared, and not just in America

                                                  The number of Mr Trump’s offences against truth and decency are too long to remember, let alone list. But they have a common theme. Time and again the mainstream media (of which I am a proud member) would proclaim that he had gone too far this time and that he was surely finished. Time and again, Mr Trump would prove them wrong and come back stronger. The things that failed to kill him politically — in particular racism and misogyny — actually made him stronger.

                                                  That is why it is also legitimate to describe Mr Trump as an “evil” genius. He has deliberately used lies and offensive language to stoke up America’s culture wars and racial tensions, confident that he will benefit politically. There is a direct connection between the current row about the president’s complaint about immigration from “shithole countries” and the campaign that launched his political career — the “birther” lie that President Barack Obama was not born in the US.

                                                  Mr Trump and many of his supporters are tacitly defending the idea of America as a “white country”. The president’s opponents are right to describe this as a racist vision. But they may be wrong in thinking that this is a decisive argument. By the 2040s, the US is predicted to be “majority-minority”. Whites will be still be the largest ethnic group in the country, but they will be less than 50 per cent of the population. By railing against Mexicans, Muslims and Haitians, and calling for more immigration from Norway, Mr Trump is appealing directly to voters who feel angry about that racial and demographic shift. The current government shutdown is also linked to these issues, since it is caused by the president’s refusal to accept an amnesty for illegal immigrants who arrived as children.

                                                  It should never be forgotten that a majority of white Americans voted for Mr Trump. Are these voters likely to turn away in disgust now because of the president’s “shithole country” comments? Or are they more likely quietly to agree? The record suggests that Mr Trump knows exactly what he is doing.

                                                  His ideas about race and immigration are nasty — but they are also widely shared, and not just in America. Japan accepted 28 refugees in the whole of 2016, and precisely three in the first half of 2017. It is virtually impossible for non-ethnic Chinese to gain citizenship in the People’s Republic of China, whose citizenship laws make explicit reference to “Chinese blood”. The EU has been split down the middle by the Polish and Hungarian governments’ refusal to accept EU-mandated quotas of refugees. The demand to “take back control” of British borders was fundamental to Britain’s Brexit vote. And the decline in Angela Merkel’s political fortunes in Germany has been closely linked to the chancellor’s decision to open her country’s borders to more than 1m refugees.

                                                  No European country has yet elected a Trump figure. But the continent’s politicians are tying themselves in knots trying to combine liberal principles with practical politics. President Emmanuel Macron speaks the language of tolerance, but is actually speeding up deportations of illegal migrants and tightening border controls. And nobody in Ms Merkel’s CDU party is campaigning for the Hungarian government to rip down the border walls that helped to stop the flow of refugees into Germany.

                                                  The fears and hatreds that the US president exploits exist well beyond his base. Liberal politicians need to find more effective policies and language to deal with those fears — or the “very stable genius” may continue to outsmart them

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                                                    By those lights Hitler was an "evil genius" too. I call bullshit

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