Trump's Card

[San Bernardhinault]

I hope the Democrats also point to their votes for the $25bn for the border wall as part of one of today's failed bills. And now never offer it again. Tell the world that Trump and the Republicans turned down the border wall because they were too desperate to keep families apart and reduce legal immigration. Every time a Dreamer is deported, they should point out that they were willing to pay for the border wall to save these kids but Trump and McConnell refused because they're just too racist and nasty to accept this.

[Sam]

The first Dreamers to be deported will be on Trump and I don't see how any deflection/blame-shift strategy can shield Trump from the resultant anger and shame. How could he hope to hold Florida, for example?

But surely the people who voted for him want precisely this. And hasn't Florida practically always been Republican? Why will the majority disown him because he got rid of a bunch of brown people, when that's what they wanted anyway?

[G-Man]

I don't think it is hyperbole to describe the forced removals under DACA as "ethnic cleansing". It's not a term that applies only to to Bosnia and Myanmar or Palestine or apartheid South Africa. This is not about immigration; it's about racism. I wish the Dems were not so craven and call this shit what it actually is.

[Flynnie]

But surely the people who voted for him want precisely this. And hasn't Florida practically always been Republican? Why will the majority disown him because he got rid of a bunch of brown people, when that's what they wanted anyway?

No, Florida is one of the archetypal bell weather states, it's voted for a losing presidential candidate once since 1952. It's also got a lot of Hispanics, the Cuban Republicans are some of the few GOP members who are publicly in favor of a path to citizenship for DACA recipients.

The MAGA chuds want this, but Dreamers are very popular and even Trump has occaisonally shown sympathy for them on the campaign trail. The optics of this are bad, deporting the captain of the high school soccer team who speaks flawless English with an American accent looks much worse than deporting a laborer who doesn't speak English at all.

This is why quite a few people on the left are mildly uncomfortable about all of this. Not to the point of actually opposing what the Democrats are trying to do, but they've pointed out that the Dreamers are essentially the cream of illegal immigrants, Americans in all but name, and that it would be nice to see some more efforts to, say, make the Dreamers' parents legal.

[Satchmo Distel]

It's possible that even Trump would not be dumb enough to actually start deporting them as opposed to leaving them in legal limbo, perhaps with no work permits and driving licenses. That would still mean people seeing their skilled and hardworking colleagues being fired. For example, if I were teaching alongside a DACA colleague, he'd be gone because universities are meticulous record-keepers about renewal of work permits. Might be interesting though if some employers kept them on illegally as an act of civil disobedience.

Ethnic cleansing of Mexicans has happened before, in the 1930s and 1950s as well as after Texas became a state.

[ursus arctos]

Good summary of the state of play on immigration

But treating this situation as a normal negotiation fundamentally obscures its profound asymmetry. One side is putting forth genuine good-faith compromise offers that would require concessions by both sides. The other just isn’t doing this at all — instead, they are demanding that they must be given everything they want, while spinning their demands as reasonable in a manner that is absolutely saturated with bad faith from top to bottom.

[Flynnie]

Good summary of the state of play on immigration

Well yeah, this has been the GOP's modus operandi since 2008. This is why lots of people were mad they caved on the shutdown.

[San Bernardhinault]

The Democrats have a problem, though. They know the Republicans are basically functioning as an anti-government, as an anti-party. And, during the Obama years they were led by someone who was a very visible face of calm, collected competence. So they have set themselves in opposition to the Republicans in the sense that they are the party of actually governing, of being the grown ups in the room. They have to be the party of regular order, of give and take.

So if they roleplay as Republicans, just shutting it all down, of holding their breath until they faint, they lose a large part of their sales pitch. The Republicans can also do this because they actually are Randian fucknuts who want everything to be chaos. Democrats, on the whole, think government makes things better, so shutting the government is arguably doing the Republicans a favour.

I'm not sure that the Dems could do anything but cave on the shutdown. Their problem, really, is that they tried to use a shutdown as leverage at all. It was silly tactics from the outset.

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...arged-election

Robert Mueller. Photograph: Andrew Harnik/AP
Thirteen Russians have been criminally charged for interfering in the 2016 US election to help Donald Trump, the office of Robert Mueller, the special counsel, announced on Friday.

[ursus arctos]

This is very serious, but there is still room for silliness

https://twitter.com/mcgregormt/status/964569424924741635

[San Bernardhinault]

I can't tell if this is a big deal, in terms of Trump, or a bit of a nothing because it just focuses on Russians who were playing with Facebook algorithms, which we've always known was happening and has no direct link to Trumpland.

[ursus arctos]

We don’t know yet

That said, it does provide a host of predicate offenses onto which conspiracy charges could be laid.

Fox is gleefully reporting the very limited allegations of the “organization’s” support for Sanders and Stein as exonerating their guy. Their contempt for their audience’s intelligence is just breathtaking.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Trump said the whole Russia thing was bollocks, didn't he?

[San Bernardhinault]

Yeah, but Trump doesn't seem to understand the difference between Russian interference, Russia rigging the election for Trump to win, and Trump campaign collusion with Russia.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Shouldn't that be a major political problem?

[Snake Plissken]

I can't tell if this is a big deal, in terms of Trump, or a bit of a nothing because it just focuses on Russians who were playing with Facebook algorithms, which we've always known was happening and has no direct link to Trumpland.

https://twitter.com/Zeddary/status/964562156044906496

[ursus arctos]

Tubbs, there are dozens of things that should be a major political problem, but this is the US in 2018

[ursus arctos]

He is so staggeringly stupid

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/964594780088033282

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is there even an aside to acknowledge it's about the country too?

[ursus arctos]

Yet again, I thought you were paying attention.

[Lang Spoon]

Tubbs, does The Donald give half a fuck about the country except as it effects his own gain or loss?

EDIT: ach, never refreshed and saw The Collective saying it best

[Tubby Isaacs]

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/964560855391236097

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm paying attention. But I'll never get why this isn't a problem for him.

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I strongly pressed President Putin twice about Russian meddling in our election. He vehemently denied it. I've already given my opinion.....

4:31 am - 9 Jul 2017

[San Bernardhinault]

If you don't understand why it's not a problem, you're not paying attention.

[Tubby Isaacs]

You need something like our Prime Minister's Questions. I'll never slag that institution off again. President has to go into the Senate every so often and answer questions from both sides.