The Refereeing Thread

[ad hoc]

Took me a while to work out the sent off substitute one until I realised that it meant when a sub is red carded while still on the bench

[Janik]

Two examples of a Hockey self-pass in action, drawing differing Umpiring responses:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbt1xako0_A

[imp]

Thanks for that, Janik. I think that the way around it is to continue to stipulate that once the free-kick has been taken, any player can become involved in play - just as when now, if a player takes a quick free-kick, an opponent can play or attempt to play the ball as long as he or she hasn't deliberately blocked the ball at a distance of less than 10 yards. So that flexibility already exists - if a player takes a quick free-kick it doesn't matter if an opponent is closer than ten yards. The taker has already factored that in, calculating that it's still of greater advantage to his team to take the free-kick quickly. If a player stands directly in front of the ball, as so often and obnoxiously happens, the taker asks for 10 yards and a whistle. That should be a yellow card for the infringer, if you're being strict, but it's rarely given. A directive to enforce that law would also be an option. (I can imagine the furore in Frankfurt's lowest leagues if I did that now.)

[ursus arctos]

One of the worst non-calls I have ever seen (two-handed hand ball from Nacional-Botafogo in the Copa Libertadores)

Must be seen to be believed

[ChrisJ]

Thanks Imp, that's a really useful analysis and I agree with your conclusions pretty much.

Interesting list. Two of them in particular are straight lifts from other sports; the half not ending until the ball is out of play (Rugby) and the self-pass restarts (Hockey).

One interesting aspect of the self-pass rule in Hockey is that it really reduces dissent. Rather than a free-hit/free-kick being a set piece, it becomes a continuation of play. Player x fouls player y. Player x turns away from the game to lambast the referee. Player y puts the ball down and dribbles into the gap that player x was meant to have been in. Player x gets roundly abused by his teammates for not doing his job defensively.
That is the upside. This is downside. A foul is given. The fouled player grabs the ball, and takes a very quick free-kick with a self-pass. The player who committed the foul has not had time to retreat ten yards. What he should do is let the player go, because he cannot legally challenge due to being too close to the spot of the free-kick. However if he tackles instead (which he may feel the need to do, particularly if letting his opponent go will create an obviously dangerous attacking opportunity), that is an offence that will draw another free-kick and likely a card as well as otherwise the infringing player has benefitted from breaking the rules. The result is that players 'know' that if they self-pass a free-kick and make a beeline straight for an opponent, they can get them booked. Hence they can cynically exploit this by dribbling straight into an opponent who has not had a chance to retreat, or may even be making an active effort to get out of the way.

On balance it has worked well in Hockey. Hence, presumably, Football looking at it. But it has only worked because Hockey cards are given out much quicker than Football ones. Players are not called over to the ump to have their name taken and the card that is coming explained. That means, when a cynical foul breaks up a counter-attack, the officials don't end up given the scrambling side time to get in position. And also they don't delay the rapid taking of free-hits, catching players within five yards (Hockey uses a smaller distance than Football). If Football wants this to be effective, then it needs to find a way to let the game flow easier when issuing cards.

Oh, and as a player self-passes are a very tiring invention. If a team is good at using them, then the number of breaks in the game to pause for breath are much reduced.

The first thing I thought of is the way that players rush to stand in front of the free-kick spot then slowly retreat the required 10 yards to stop the free-kick being taken quickly. Will this change affect that? (It really pisses me off, btw. I'm thoroughly irrational to the point of fascism on that behaviour.)

A Shrewsbury player (Nick or Pat will recall who) was sent off for 2nd yellow last season when he hadn't retreated in time. I recall the discussion was whether he'd had time or was the victim of a dastardly ploy. In order to stop people immediately tackling a 'dribble-taker', you'd have to have the defender even further away from the point of the offence than if it's being kicked wouldn't you? So current behaviour/practice would pretty much prevent quick free-kicks by dribbling just as they do now. Or am I missing something?

[danielmak]

Since this seems to be the new Your are the Ref thread as well as all things referee related, I've got a You are the Ref question. I was watching a domestic cup game at the end of the season (can't remember which one) that went to penalties. One player seemed to be struggling with very bad leg cramps and was on the side receiving treatment as extra time ended. By the time penalties started he was wrapped in ice. It did not appear as if he was officially declared unfit during the last minutes of extra time. The situation inspired a two-part question:

(1) In this scenario is he expected to take a penalty if he was not officially removed before the end of extra time?

(2) If he was officially removed, this would mean that there is an uneven number of players on the pitch by the final whistle. Does the side with 11 exclude 1 player from taking penalties so it is 10-10 taking penalties or would the team without injuries be allowed to use all 11?

[Chopper]

Since this seems to be the new Your are the Ref thread as well as all things referee related, I've got a You are the Ref question. I was watching a domestic cup game at the end of the season (can't remember which one) that went to penalties. One player seemed to be struggling with very bad leg cramps and was on the side receiving treatment as extra time ended. By the time penalties started he was wrapped in ice. It did not appear as if he was officially declared unfit during the last minutes of extra time. The situation inspired a two-part question: (1) In this scenario is he expected to take a penalty if he was not officially removed before the end of extra time? (2) If he was officially removed, this would mean that there is an uneven number of players on the pitch by the final whistle. Does the side with 11 exclude 1 player from taking penalties so it is 10-10 taking penalties or would the team without injuries be allowed to use all 11?

(1) No...he can just be removed from the eligible penalty takers, which leads to... (2) The side now with an extra player have to remove one.

[imp]

After a five-week break that seems way too short, I was back out yesterday mediating between stroppy twats in mid-summer. It's that time of year when I ask myself how long I want to keep doing this. I'm not at the point of quitting. I don't know if that point even exists. But the point of asking myself the question seems to be an ever-present.

It's taken me six months just to switch clubs to the one where I'm now also coaching. All it needs is one form, and one stamp with a signature from the club I was first registered with. I got it back in the post this morning after sending it to them in February, followed by multiple phone calls, emails and an appeal through the refereeing body - because they knew that if we missed the June 30 deadline they'd keep me for another year and my coming games would count to their credit (meaning they avoid fines for having too few refs). The stamp and signature are dated June 30, the last possible day, and the cunts only did it because I re-sent them the form via registered mail.

Sorry, boring procedural stuff, but needed to get it off my keyboard.

[Sits]

Well done, however painful it might have been.

[Erskine Bridges]

I've been enjoying your blogs IMP, all good stuff.

I've only reffed one match in my life and that will be the last. Our amateur game had been called off at the last minute and for some unknown reason I agreed to ref another match which had been downgraded to 'friendly' after their ref didn't show. After about the third outburst of sweary venom over my 'wrong' calls I gathered the players together in the centre circle and told them I didn't need to be there, was a footballer just like them, not a ref and that I would as a result undoubtably make mistakes so live with it. And if anyone else told me to fuck off, I would.
All went swimmingly after that and they even offered me some money but what a hard job. I never criticised refs during a game, would chat to them, would sometimes say 'OK right decision' when caught out. That approach as opposed to the normal spitting fury they would receive got me more than my fair share of 50:50 decisions and it's just nice to be nice.

In terms of the most unusual but quite possibly best reffing decision I ever saw was during a particularly tousy Div 2 (south) Aberdeenshire league encounter between my team and AN Other I can't remember. With about 5 mins to go one of our midfielders nutmegged (not for the first time) his opponent who, showing why he didn't have the temperament for a higher standard of football, chased our boy up the park before attempting to cut him in half a la Tommy Gemmell in that West Germany v Scotland game from the sixties. A massive brawl ensued with a good number of serious kicks & punches being landed before the players, not the ref, managed to break it up. The ref was lying down in the centre circle waiting for it to calm down. When it did, he got up, blew for time and walked off. He was immediately surrounded by irate players from both sides demanding he continue the game. He said he'd had enough of the shite and that we could have two options. Either he 1. ends the game there (it was 2-2 I think) and report a draw and nothing more or 2. he would carry on but first try to sort out who got booked and who got sent off (that would be at least 10) and given the offences those sent off would be looking at very long term bans.

There was a moments silence before everybody came to the same conclusion that option 1. was the wise choice, shook hands and went to the pub. This was possibly not a decision which would have been endorsed by the Scottish Referees Association but it was IMO the right one. BTW the ref was in his late sixties, maybe even older. I doubt a younger guy would have had the balls to make that call.

[imp]

Thanks for that, Erskine - good to hear from you again (you must be one of the board's oldest but most sporadic posters).

Good work by The Daily Telegraph (not often anyone here says that), working with a young referee who suffered assaults to pressure the FA into introducing more draconian bans at grassroots level for violent conduct towards refs, and verbal abuse.

[imp]

This weekend, a fan gets stroppy over my DOGSO non-decision.

[imp]

It's Monday morning, folks. This week I talk about pushing. Yesterday I met a player who vehemently believes that it's allowed because "This is football!"

[imp]

"Your refereeing's shit!" Another fun weekend, including getting physically assaulted for the first time - thankfully only a shirt thrown in my face from the player I'd just red-carded.

With writing up a 900-word disciplinary report in German (the more detail the better, they tell us), this game took up six hours of my Sunday altogether. And you're right, I choose to do this. So who's the real fucking nutter?

[Chopper]

In terms of the most unusual but quite possibly best reffing decision I ever saw was during a particularly tousy Div 2 (south) Aberdeenshire league encounter between my team and AN Other I can't remember. With about 5 mins to go one of our midfielders nutmegged (not for the first time) his opponent who, showing why he didn't have the temperament for a higher standard of football, chased our boy up the park before attempting to cut him in half a la Tommy Gemmell in that West Germany v Scotland game from the sixties. A massive brawl ensued with a good number of serious kicks & punches being landed before the players, not the ref, managed to break it up. The ref was lying down in the centre circle waiting for it to calm down. When it did, he got up, blew for time and walked off. He was immediately surrounded by irate players from both sides demanding he continue the game. He said he'd had enough of the shite and that we could have two options. Either he 1. ends the game there (it was 2-2 I think) and report a draw and nothing more or 2. he would carry on but first try to sort out who got booked and who got sent off (that would be at least 10) and given the offences those sent off would be looking at very long term bans.

There was a moments silence before everybody came to the same conclusion that option 1. was the wise choice, shook hands and went to the pub. This was possibly not a decision which would have been endorsed by the Scottish Referees Association but it was IMO the right one. BTW the ref was in his late sixties, maybe even older. I doubt a younger guy would have had the balls to make that call.

That is a superb anecdote, cheers Erskine - some guys are just born to referee, and that fella certainly had the minerals alright (I'd LOL if I was allowed).

It's Monday morning, folks. This week I talk about pushing. Yesterday I met a player who vehemently believes that it's allowed because "This is football!"

Loving your work imp, blog bookmarked, every entry enjoyed - you definitely have the temperament for it too, something I couldn't manage when I had a go (Boys football = lovely polite boys, disgusting managers/coaches/parents, yadda blah...). Nail on head regarding the LAWS, of course, as I'm convinced 90+% of footballers/managers/fans (definitely fans) don't know them at all, judging by their actions. And words, obviously, as again this weekend, like almost every weekend, the TV experts mention "Two-footed", "Feet off the ground", "Studs showing", as if these factoids are literally mentioned in the Bible (Law book). I'm convinced that most players don't realise you can't be offside from a throw-in, because that's a tictac to be exploited surely - if a player drops to the corner to receive, everyone else is onside - I've only seen it used a couple of times, so no doubt I'm wrong.

"Your refereeing's shit!" Another fun weekend, including getting physically assaulted for the first time - thankfully only a shirt thrown in my face from the player I'd just red-carded.

With writing up a 900-word disciplinary report in German (the more detail the better, they tell us), this game took up six hours of my Sunday altogether. And you're right, I choose to do this. So who's the real fucking nutter?

Hahaha...lovely stuff as per.

Oh, and Christiano - that amuses me greatly. I do blame FIFA though, really - had I been the head honcho, as soon as I saw the 1st player volunteer to take a card, rather than respect a Law of the game, I'd have instantly upped the sanction to a Red card. You either insist the players behave or suffer the consequences of the morons (mostly, not looking at you Jonjo) that play the game thumbing their nose and continuing the complete and utter lack of respect for officials.

[imp]

Thanks, Chopper. It was back into the fray last night, and how. You can probably work out the part of the world the two teams came from, but if not - think of a NATO member and European democracy sliding into dictatorship, and its ongoing civil war with a people fighting for their own rights and statehood.

[imp]

This weekend I watched with slackened jaw as a fellow ref allowed himself to be intimidated into changing his mind over a penalty decision. No fucking wonder these bastards think they can get away with yelling at us every week.

[imp]

A referee's informal guide to handball. (By me again, in case you have an aversion to the blog.)

[Bermuda Iron]

I want to echo Chopper and Erskine here, I really enjoy reading your blogs and thoughts as well Imp. Whilst I subscribe to the school of thought that states referees give up because of the shit they get from players and club officials, I also think that on occasion we are our own worst enemies. You allude to this with your comments on referees allowing themselves to be intimidated. Towards the end of last season, and hopefully at the start of this (which begins mid-September here), I got more involved in assessing and mentoring some of our younger officials. On several occasions I had to step in and provide much needed 'advice' to coaches and teams officials, usually along the lines of 'shut the fuck up and let him/her referee the game, your players are diving and whining arseholes so spend your energy actually getting them to play the game'. Such conversations usually end with 'there's no wonder we struggle to get people to ref games with the attitudes and behavior I've seen here'. That said, I can also find myself speaking to the referee and their assistants at half-time/end of the game and advising them to make a decision and stick with it. Players will always moan whatever you do, but tend to actually react better when a ref makes a call and goes with it, rather than appearing weak and indecisive. Never had much of a problem with intimidation myself, but the fact I am 6' 3" and well known as an experienced official on the island perhaps helps (aside from the odd racist comment sadly, not by me but aimed at me).

We are currently struggling here with referee numbers, and we certainly don't help ourselves. I am convinced several of the more senior (but still decidedly average) officials do 2+ games a week purely for the money. I, along with 2 other qualified instructors, try and organize weekly sessions, covering basic fitness and discussion on game scenarios, but no-one ever shows up. These same people that can't be arsed to try and develop their skills then complain vehemently that they never get appointed to the so-called 'big' games. I would rather see younger, keener, but perhaps less experienced officials referee the better standard of games to aid their learning and development, than the fat and lazy ones who are only in it for the money and some sort of power trip. The game can do without the latter.

Keep up the good work.

[imp]

Cheers, BI! (Presumably ex-Bermuda Shorts and you forgot your password.) As a coach, I see a lot of my fellow referees, and some are impressive, many less so. But I always refrain from bitching, or even talking to them about the way they ref for fear of coming across as embittered (the team I coach usually loses). Last weekend, though, we had a really good ref (we lost 10-2), and I told him so after the game. But I also asked, "Why did you only mark out 5 yards at free-kicks?" He genuinely didn't realise that at our level it's the full 10, and apologised for the mistake. As long as there's a civilised dialogue with no egos and a keenness to keep on learning then we're on a good course.

At one of the traumatic games I reffed a couple of weekends ago (when the bloke threw the shirt in my face), the ref for the next game had watched a bit of mine, and tried to tell me I'd made a mistake with an earlier yellow-red card against a defender who'd pulled back the forward by tugging on his shirt (twice) as he was about to shoot. How had I made a mistake? I was keen to now. Because it's double punishment, and they've changed the rule on that. Er no, he was already on a yellow, and he deliberately prevented a goal-scoring opportunity. If anything I was too lenient by showing him a second yellow instead of a straight red. No no, they've changed the rule, he insisted. I gave up at that point. Like you say, if even the fucking refs don't know the rules, we're not helping ourselves.

And another thing, on that theme. We have these monthly online tests that we have to take, so we're told. I slave over these bloody things, filled with stupid, barely relevant trick questions, to make sure I get the required 25 points out of 30 to pass. This season they sent an email around saying, "And this year we're really going to check whether you took the tests or not." So the past two and a half years, I needn't have fucking bothered, like everyone else? Bastards.

[Bermuda Iron]

I am indeed ex-Shorts, bloody new site screwed me around and then I remembered I had another profile I hadn't used for some reason, and knew the password to (actually, I am shit at these kinds of things and forgot I had 2 names). I agree with you that continued discussions on a respectful level between officials themselves, and coaches and officials, will only benefit the game and all involved in the longer term. I was asked to attend a Bermuda FA meeting last night, in my capacity as a supposed 'senior and top referee', to discuss the upcoming season and the lack and poor standard of officials. At the time of leaving the meeting 2 hours later, I had somehow been appointed onto the Referee's Committee and BFA senior executive, not sure exactly how that happened! The senior execs present, including the President of the BFA, agreed with my passionate discourse about how officials don't help themselves by constantly moaning without showing any willingness to meet, discuss issues and attend training sessions. I have now set myself up to help run an intensive weekend course before the season starts to refresh all officials, young and old, with the proviso that those that don't attend without a valid reason, will not be considered for early season appointments. The knock on effect being that some games may not be played due to a lack of referees, but we really need to start afresh here and move forward for the betterment of the game. I don't think I will win any Mr Popular prizes. I also ended up agreeing to facilitate a session to form the basis of a Refereeing Strategic Plan, what the fuck was I thinking? Perhaps I should have stayed as one of the fat and lazy ones who do it for the money only. I should really learn to keep my mouth shut.

I like the idea of regular online tests, I now need to volunteer myself to work with an IT geek to set them up... At least you can relax in the knowledge that your integrity is beyond reproach, and can look at your fellow refs knowing you have taken all the tests Imp.

By the way, good win for your lot today I see. With the Cods losing and us beating Argyle, not a bad day all round I suppose.

[Janik]

One from Cambridge today. Near post cross comes in, defender and forward go for it, ball squirts over the byline. No immediate decision from the ref, who looks at his assistant. Nor from the assistant, who looks at the ref. A pause, then both opt simultaneously to give their best guess. The ref points for a corner, the lino flags for a goal-kick.
The sort of thing that happens, really. What intrigued me was the ref allowed his assistant to overrule him, and it ended up as a goal-kick. Is the thinking that a decision wrongly given to the defence is less likely to be controversial than the other way?

[Bermuda Iron]

Interesting question. Excuse my ignorance, are the officials in League 2 miked up? If so, I would assume, given that neither seemed to be 100% certain, that the ref would advise his assistant which way he is going with the decision. Something along the lines of "Not entirely sure, think its a corner, any reason I should go the other way?". Obviously the ref has the overall authority, and it is unusual to be overruled by the assistant, unless the ref is not sure and the assistant is absolutely certain and tells the ref so. My pre-match brief makes it clear to my assistants that if I have not got a clue at all about a throw-in or a corner, usually down to positioning or very close touches by the line, as in this case, I will look directly at my assistant with a very clear 'help me out please' expression on my face. I really don't think I give much thought as to if it is better to award a decision to the defending side as some sort of a safe bet, I really want to get it right and try and work with my assistants to do so. Being honest, I will only give a penalty if I am 100% certain, same with red cards, but for decisions such as throw-ins and corners, I give what I think probably happened if it is a '50-50' call, with no thought as to who it might benefit or what is less likely to cause controversy.

[imp]

Agree with everything BI said. Reffing without linesmen, when I've no clue who got the last touch, I just make sure to give an immediate and loud and decisive call. Had a few this afternoon, in fact (and inevitably one team howls in protest - the amount of fevered conviction players can express over a lost throw-in is quite impressive). Often I'll make the 'T' gesture with my hand to indicate a deflection, which makes it seems as though I, with my all-seeing referee's eye, have seen something everyone else hasn't. When in fact all I'm doing is selling the call.

My favourite small anecdote in this regard came a few years back in the US (and which I may have told before). I was reffing the centre and looked to my young linesman for guidance on a throw-in, as discussed pre-game. He looked back at me and just shrugged. Like, a big massive shrug, not just a quick shrug that maybe only I would see. The sort of over-emphasised shrug your teenage daughter might give to say, "I don't give a fuck." Had to have a word about that at half-time. The funny thing was, he'd been on the same training course as me three or four years before, and you could already tell back then he was going to be a fucking liability.

Congratulations, BI, on your new appointments - sounds like they need a few heads cracking together. Will look forward to your progress reports (assuming progress is made). Good luck.

[imp]

This weekend's blog: "Meet my imaginary linesmen."