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    #51
    I missed that Vardar only got through by beating Kiel on away goals.

    There really isn't a competitive league in Spain, it's Barcelona and everyone else (although their winning streak did end after 133 domestic games this season when they drew with Guadalajara). I'm not sure that a competitive league is the be all and end all in European Handball though. There are a few clubs in central and eastern Europe who have pretty much a monopoly on the league. However there are enough Champions League games (and SEHA games for some) to make up for one sided domestic matches. I think France and Germany are the only two countries with well developed domestic competitions at the moment.

    I thought I mentioned it at the time but apparently I didn't Rhein Neckar Lowen played two games at the same time in March (well not exactly but an hour apart). One in Poland for the Champions League and the other in Kiel for the Bundesliga. It showed the importance of the Bundesliga (or at least the TV deal that the team in Poland was the youth/second string). But it mostly comes down to a power struggle between the EHF and the German federation. The Kielce fans were great though.

    Back to the Champions League, the Women's final 4 is

    CSM București
    Győri ETO
    Rostov-Don
    HC Vardar

    Vardar won their first Macedonian league in 2013 after being bought by Sergey Samsonenko (the Russian bookmaker who also owns the Vardar mens and Vardar football (who have also started performing in European competitions I believe)).

    I'd love to have a better understanding of the differences in support and development between mens and womens professional handball. It's not entirely about the money I believe, although it plays a massive part. I idly suggested to a friend that I might go see the Romanian Men play against Austria in June and they just said that the Mens team is rubbish while the Womens team competes at a high level. You do see similar disparities when you look at the teams who qualify for competitions. There is some crossover (France for example) but there are equally countries that only ever have men or women qualify.

    Comment


      #52
      Ciudad Real were a real force in Spain before the crash, with several national championships and three Champions Leagues.

      Dujshebaev both played and coached there.

      The Madrid exurb they represented was particularly hard hit by the collapse (it features the most famous of the “ghost airports”, which has been abandoned), and they only lasted two seasons after a last gasp attempt at viability after moving to the capital and tying up with Atleti.

      Comment


        #53
        Not sure that will answer your question Levin re development between men's and women's pro handball but it might shed a light onto it, for France anyhow.

        In France, the U18 development structure for handballeuses very much mirrors the men’s one, and that strong structure for the formative years can be found later in the pro game, to a degree (the men's game being obviously better supported financially). At high school level (lycée, 15-18, but also in some collèges, 11-14), there's at least 1 elite Handball section per region, they’re called "Section Sport-Étude" and have existed for both sexes in most sports since the 1960s (showing my age here, it’s actually been called "Section Sportive Scolaire" since 1996, I didn’t know). https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport-%C3%A9tude

        These Sport-Études structures vary in level and intensity, some really are designed to accommodate the best players, others are less demanding and would typically dedicate fewer hours to sport, it's structured and prescriptive so there's a minimum and max. of hours set out by the Dpt for Education depending on the lycée, not sure what criteria they specifically use for each school but let's not get bogged down in details. In practice, it means that all these Sport-Études pupils have a specific timetable tailored to their educational and sports needs. Typically they would study in the morning and train most afternoons. https://www.gralon.net/articles/ense...rche--7917.htm

        Most Sport-Études section have a local partner club too, who provide state-of-the art facilities, teams for training etc.

        In parallel, for the top players, there are "Pôle Espoirs" and "Pôle France" hubs too (just like in football), most lycéens would join these top elite centres of excellence from the 2nd or 3rd (final) high school year I believe, they're also for post-18 education for those who chose to carry on I think, particularly with post-baccalauréat vocational studies, BTS for instance. These U18 Pôle kids compete in an inter-pôles league throughout the year on week days, usually Wednesday afternoons (no school on Wednesday afternoons in France and since last Sept. no school at all on Wednesday in one third of schools) and players line up with their respective club at weekends.

        Post-18, there is also the INSEP for the top top players (in 26 sports), the professionals in effect, they receive a wage from INSEP, logistical help etc. However, I'm not sure there's handball at INSEP, but internationals and teams often visit when they’re in Paris as the structures are excellent.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INSEP

        http://en.rfi.fr/sports/20120727-ins...mpic-champions

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2M-1Oyj-NU

        Club development is strong for both sexes too, municipalities often subsidise good local clubs, alongside private sponsors who foot most of the bill nowadays.

        The men’s top division (LNH Division 1) is fully professional (the average monthly salary of a top-flight player is €7,000, excluding bonuses and perks) and most 2nd-division (Proligue LNH) clubs are professional too. The French federation has a threshold budget for Proligue clubs (about €1m a year) under which they cannot compete, along with a strict "cahier des charges", i.e financial obligations and technical specifications re wages, staffing levels etc. From HANDNEWS.fr (2015-2016) Chaque club se doit d’avoir 9 joueurs sous contrat salariés à temps plein à minima, un entraîneur professionnel sous contrat ainsi que deux salariés administratifs et/ou techniques à temps plein.

        Most PRO A women’s clubs are professional too I believe. Brest Bretagne Handball has the biggest budget this year, €4 million, so that's pretty decent. Some handballeuses are reasonably well-known, such as Véronique Rolland-Pecqueux or keeper Cléopâtre Darleux (the latter maybe also because she models in her spare time) but none of them really is a household name in the way some male players have been since the mid-1990s (less media coverage for women and less notoriety than men, difficult to beat the men’s team’s success since the mid-1990s it has to be said).
        Last edited by Pérou Flaquettes; 01-05-2018, 11:43.

        Comment


          #54
          Thank you for that Kev it's really interesting. It's good that there are equal structures for men and women. Wiki says that all but one of the teams in womens PRO A have budgets of more than €1m, wiki has also introduced my to the word "playdown" which would be bad enough if it was used by an anglophone.

          Am I imagining that handball is more popular in the south east and north west than other areas of the country? Or am I making too many assumptions based on where teams are located?

          Finally. A third of schools are closed on Wednesdays? Does that mean they only teach 4 days a week or is Saturday a school day in France?

          Comment


            #55
            I don't have an accurate overall picture of Romanian handball, but I never see boys playing, whereas it's very common for girls. My daughter plays on the school team, for example. This appears to translate into the professional/adult national team in which Romania mens team are rubbish (and in fact are rarely if ever talked about - the only time I've ever really heard any media coverage of them is when Marian Cozma was stabbed and killed in a bar fight in Hungary while he was a player for Vezprem). Whereas the women are excellent (not among the very top nations in Europe, but very much in the second tier.) Cristina Neagu is one of (if not THE) best player in women's handball in the world

            Comment


              #56
              Romania seems to be a good example of the disparity Levin noted.

              The Romanian men haven't qualified for the European Championships since 1996, whereas the women won their group in the 2017 Worlds (over eventual champions France) before suffering a single goal upset to Czechia in the round of 16.

              In addition to qualifying for this year's Final Four, CSM Bucuresti won the 2015-16 Champions League and finished third in 2016-17

              Comment


                #57
                Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                I don't have an accurate overall picture of Romanian handball, but I never see boys playing, whereas it's very common for girls. My daughter plays on the school team, for example. This appears to translate into the professional/adult national team in which Romania mens team are rubbish (and in fact are rarely if ever talked about - the only time I've ever really heard any media coverage of them is when Marian Cozma was stabbed and killed in a bar fight in Hungary while he was a player for Vezprem). Whereas the women are excellent (not among the very top nations in Europe, but very much in the second tier.) Cristina Neagu is one of (if not THE) best player in women's handball in the world
                Interesting, thanks. This is good too: Roumanie | Le nouvel Eldorado du handball

                Comment


                  #58
                  Originally posted by Levin View Post
                  Thank you for that Kev it's really interesting. It's good that there are equal structures for men and women. Wiki says that all but one of the teams in womens PRO A have budgets of more than €1m
                  Yes, the average budget is ~€1.6m, with Brest (3,65m) and Le Havre (0.95m) bookending the financial ranking. The LFH has imposed a strict "cahiers des charges" – list of specifications & requirements – on pro clubs (minimum budget of €700K, full-time manager, min. of 8 full-time professional players etc.).

                  Originally posted by Levin View Post
                  wiki has also introduced my to the word "playdown" which would be bad enough if it was used by an anglophone.
                  The French language is replete with English-sounding terms that are a mystery to English natives! (and, often, to French natives too, it can be a ridiculous linguistic mish-mash at times). Never heard of "play-down" before either, that’s a new one to me. It might be some kind of barrage (play-off), maybe pitting the PRO A bottom clubs agst the top 2nd-division clubs, don’t know, I’ll check later.

                  Originally posted by Levin View Post
                  Am I imagining that handball is more popular in the south east and north west than other areas of the country? Or am I making too many assumptions based on where teams are located?
                  In terms of general participation, or "participants" as we vaguely call them in the UK (what the French precisely call licenciés, paying club members), it’s pretty evenly distributed throughout France. There are about 40,000 handball licenciés in the PACA region, Provence Alpes Côte D’Azur (out of about 550,000 for the whole country), so that tallies roughly with the population %.



                  (from hand-paca.fr, http://www.hand-paca.fr/cap-2020.html).

                  Comment


                    #59
                    The Italian version of "play-down" is "play-out"

                    Comment


                      #60
                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                      The Italian version of "play-down" is "play-out"
                      And késaco?

                      Comment


                        #61
                        What is usually called a "relegation playoff" in English.

                        Generally among teams with the third through sixth worst record, with the loser either going down or being matched against the winner of a playoff from the lower tier.

                        Comment


                          #62
                          Originally posted by Levin View Post
                          Or am I making too many assumptions based on where teams are located?
                          Possibly, as the two (grassroots map of licenciés and map of pro men’s and women’s clubs) don’t necessarily correspond. There’s also here the problematic notions of "south east" and "north west", much vaguer in France than they are in England. Eg, are Nîmes and Montpellier to be included in the South East? It’s moot, especially for the latter (I’m afraid there may be an unhealthy dose of enculage de diptères – unreasonable nitpicking – on my part here, sorry).

                          As far as the pro women’s game is concerned, there’s no blatant regional imbalance, it is fairly uniform, cf the map of top-flight women’s clubs from 2008 to 2018 (on the right handside):

                          https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champi...l_f%C3%A9minin

                          Nothing in central France but that’s because it’s very sparsely populated. There’s only 1 professional handball club men & women in the whole of that large area (probably the size of Ireland): newbies Limoges Hand – men’s second division – basket-ball has always been very dominant in Limoges. As for Clermont-Ferrand, rugby is very strong in the Michelin city, so that's likely to hinder the emergence of other sports at a professional level.

                          For men, there is indeed a South East over-representation in the top flight, with 3 clubs/out of 14 in the SE if we include Nîmes in it, 4 at a pinch with Montpellier although technically Montpellier isn’t in the South East, not sure Nîmes is either. Both Nîmes and Montpellier (ex Languedoc Roussillon) have been part of the Occitanie region since 2016, a sort of Greater South West area (but neither cities can be considered part of the South West). So neither are they part of the South East IMO, especially Montpellier, if you have to categorise them, I'd say they're just plain Southern cities.

                          It’s hard sometimes to think in those SE, SW, NE etc. terms for France as there isn’t the same compartmentalisation as we have in England, it’s more defined along regional lines in France (but that’s changing too) even if it’s true that in these times of homogenisation, people are encouraged to think more "globally", eg the new Grand Est region (previously Alsace-Champagne-Ardenne-Lorraine). To me though, the SE basically means Provence + the southern Alpine area, as in the PACA region (Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur).



                          The Proligue, the men’s second division, is far more northern, but with 2 clubs/out of 14 in the South East (which is good for the SE in terms of population ratio):

                          https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champi...e_D2_2017-2018
                          Last edited by Pérou Flaquettes; 02-05-2018, 15:54.

                          Comment


                            #63
                            Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                            What is usually called a "relegation playoff" in English.

                            Generally among teams with the third through sixth worst record, with the loser either going down or being matched against the winner of a playoff from the lower tier.
                            Thanks, that's what I gathered, they could really simply have called it what they used to call it in football pre 1990s, namely "barrage d'accession en Ligue 1" (as a matter of fact, the barrages are back this season in Ligue 1).

                            Comment


                              #64
                              Originally posted by Levin View Post
                              Finally. A third of schools are closed on Wednesdays? Does that mean they only teach 4 days a week or is Saturday a school day in France?
                              Yes, about that, one third, since last September. It’s been fluctuating between 4 and 4.5 days for a while now (Le Monde, July 2017 = Rythmes scolaires : un tiers des écoles optent pour un retour à la semaine de quatre jours).

                              Might be even higher than one third. There is no definitive national figure but according to some media, such as Le Point below, it’s more in the 40% bracket:

                              Outre les 43 % des collectivités dont les écoles sont repassées à quatre jours à la rentrée 2017, l'enquête montre que 40 % des communes et 45 % des intercommunalités supplémentaires ont d'ores et déjà envisagé les quatre jours à la rentrée prochaine.

                              Basically, there’s been an on-going debate in France since the 1990s around "les rythmes scolaires" (organisation of school time) involving the unions, teachers, parents, chronobiologists etc. and it’s set to continue, so the picture is pretty patchy between regions/departments, LEAs, municipalities, schools (primary and secondary) etc. but I don’t think the school week will ever exceed 4.5 days in France, for starters the powerful teaching unions will never allow a 5 day week and it’s generally accepted that schools need at least 1 afternoon off for the "périscolaire" (non compulsory extra-curricular activities, of which sport is a big component).

                              I think that it’s mostly primary schools and collèges (11-14) that operate on a 4 day week now, and more in rural areas, but I could be wrong, maybe lycées too (15-18). In practice, it means that school days are a little longer than they are in England, especially in the secondary, and more so in lycées (but with an extra 5-6 weeks of holiday in France). Anyway, for those Sport-Étude kids it’s academic as they benefit from a specific timetable and most probably have the whole of Wednesday off for competitions, especially in the elite Sport-Étude sections and, a fortiori, in the Pôle Espoirs from which the best players emerge.

                              The legislation has changed a few times since the 2000s. In 2007 primary schools were allowed to go for a 4-day week (so, no more schooling on Saturdays) but that was non prescriptive and many primary children continued to attend school every other Saturday or one Saturday in three. Then, the secondary sector followed suit in 2009, but again, with a degree of flexibility. In 2013, Hollande changed all that (the Peillon reforms) and abolished the 4-day week to go back to the traditional 4.5 day week. Since last summer, Macron’s gvt has scraped Hollande’s 4.5 day week but has stopped short of imposing a template, opting to let LEAs and municipalities decide what model they prefer as they have discretionary powers in those matters. Visibly, so far, about 40% have gone for a 4 day week, so no school on Sat. for those kids.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                The traditional Italian word for a play-off is spareggio, but that has been interpreted as having to be between only two clubs (traditionally those tied on points).

                                And given that "play-off" came into view in Italy via US sports (primarily basketball), where they are contested among top clubs for a title, it was thought that a different word was needed for a similar competition among more than two clubs near the bottom of the table. Thus "play out".

                                Another variant on this phenomenon is the very popular Italian commercial radio station "Radio Dee Jay" in which the last two words had to be spelled phonetically because the single letters "D" and "J" are pronounced differently in Italian.
                                Last edited by ursus arctos; 02-05-2018, 17:09.

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Thanks ursus. They could equally have called "play-out" spareggio relegazione (just like they call it "barrage de promotion/relégation" in French football, although "play-off" is creeping of course)

                                  (sorry, the board won't let me access the standard reply function, it's been spooling for a while, so I can't italicise).

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Cup finals in Derby this weekend and it'll be on the BBC!! Well, the BBC sport website or on a connected TV.

                                    But still, it's good to get the coverage. Link to the BBC website where there will be handball

                                    Sunday 6th May

                                    Women's National Cup final: Coventry Sharks v London GD 14:00 BST - Connected TV and online

                                    Men's National Cup final: London GD v NEM Hawks 16:30 BST - Connected TV and online

                                    A caveat.

                                    This will not be the best quality handball. If you want to watch good handball the womens final 4 is on next weekend. These are amateur teams who train 2-3 evenings a week.

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      All French final in the Champions League after Montpellier eliminate holders Vardar Skopje. They will face Nantes (which put out PSG) for the title.
                                      Last edited by ursus arctos; 26-05-2018, 23:02.

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        FRANCE TO MEET SLOVENIA IN MEN'S 20 EHF EURO FINAL

                                        Final tomorrow afternoon, 4.30 BST time. https://www.ehftv.com/gb/livestream/...ovenia/1256528

                                        The Slovenian goalkeeper doesn’t look too shabby:

                                        https://twitter.com/EHFEURO/status/1022908230920491009

                                        https://twitter.com/EHFEURO/status/1022919038006165504


                                        Great skills from that French player:

                                        https://twitter.com/EHFEURO/status/1022881830217895936

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Men’s 20 Euro final, good closely-fought game, of the fast and furious type. It’s slowed down a bit but it really got off to a flying start.

                                          https://www.ehftv.com/gb/livestream/...ovenia/1256528

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Slovenia Men's U-20 European champion (for the first time), home crowd went berserk, great scenes. Excellent game, went right to the wire (31-30).

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              So it's the time of year where some very amateur British teams take part in a European competition and get a wonderful experience. Except! This year in the Mens Challenge Cup London GD got drawn against Livingston HC from Glasgow. So a British team will, for the first time, progress in a European handball competition.

                                              If you fancy seeing it there are two legs being played this weekend in Gillingham (Kent). Tickets can be bought for both days here.

                                              If you want to watch but don't fancy a visit to Medway then you can watch on the BBC (man, they butchered my picture I know web images need compression but still compare to the original, I bet someone at the club just took a FB copy) or EHFtv.

                                              We're even the focus of a write up on the European Handball Federation website.

                                              I'm getting quite excited if not confident. British Handball instituted a British Championship cup last season with the top two teams from England and Scotland competing in a final four. The Scottish teams came first and second. However it was held in Scotland and both London teams were not full strength, but I don't know if that was true of the Scottish teams.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Livingston HC must be from Livingston, not Glasgow surely?

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  Yeah. On consideration that seems more likely.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Not totally beyond the bounds of probability that the team could be nicked I guess, although they'd presumably rebrand if they did. If that were the case, would just need Meadowbank to nick a baseball team or summat off off Glasgow to complete a weird triangle...

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