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    So, how did you vote?

    johnr wrote: I think that this guy's first two reasons for Labour supporting Article 50 are bollocks, but the third has some merit.
    I don't get why there's a General Election if the government lose. It's a made up constitutional crisis.

    Anyway, they won't lose. They've got probably every Tory MP except Ken Clarke (even Soubry is voting for), plus the DUP, plus Kipper Labour.

    Comment


      So, how did you vote?

      Nocturnal Submission wrote:
      Originally posted by GCostanza
      Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission
      Good campaigning material for UKIP in the Stoke by-election: "Southern elites screwing us over again."
      As opposed to voting for privatisation of the NHS. And the parliamentary sovereignty they voted for to take precedence over the EU, taking, er, precedence over an advisory referendum.
      Oh, I quite agree, but that's not the way the decision will be spun and that's not the way the electorate will receive it.
      The electorate don't get the rule of law?

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        So, how did you vote?

        Tubby Isaacs wrote:
        Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission
        Originally posted by GCostanza
        Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission
        Good campaigning material for UKIP in the Stoke by-election: "Southern elites screwing us over again."
        As opposed to voting for privatisation of the NHS. And the parliamentary sovereignty they voted for to take precedence over the EU, taking, er, precedence over an advisory referendum.
        Oh, I quite agree, but that's not the way the decision will be spun and that's not the way the electorate will receive it.
        The electorate don't get the rule of law?
        I don't think that quite a large chunk of it get the finer points of constitutional law, no.

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          So, how did you vote?

          I wouldn't be so sure. The Government were all magnanimous on the 6 o'clock news. No problem with Brexit happening at all. Even IDS who was frothing this morning about the courts "moving into new territory" had been told to shut up and act like it was all great.

          The news gave them a bit of stake for losing the case, but they got off very likely with their complete reverse ferret from their bollocks before. No stick for Cameron in fucking up the Referendum Bill either.

          The BBC duly reported a bill could be coming on Thursday. No reporting that 5 weeks isn't very long for it to be judged properly. Not that the Leader of the Opposition cares.

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            So, how did you vote?

            There's nothing the leader's media team can't mess up, is there?

            Stuck out two reactions to the judgement. First reaction mentioned tariff free access to the Single Market. Second, half an hour later, didn't.

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              So, how did you vote?

              The ruling on Sewell was a shitty confirmation that Devolution can be undermined (and will) by Ministerial Order, and the Scotland Act's bullshit that it put Sewell on a Statutory footing has been exposed for the twaddle it always was (note Mundell's insertion of "Normally" in the phrase "The Sewell Convention shall normally apply". Classic vague as you like lawyerly sophistry. And you can hardly call Brexit normal.

              But if this shows SLab's idiocy in refusing a proper statutory footing for Sewell in the Smith negotiations, and will help to kill their doomed doomed Federalism Double Plus! project, the real loser might be Korea. Peter Geoghegan (Irish Glasgow based journo) points out that on the twitters that the neutering of Sewell means the GFA is subject to unilateral amendment (and judging by Fuckface May's refusal to address the Dail this week, they are in no mood to court their only possible allies on Europe, preferring the thrusting Trump and Erdogan to do their bowing and scraping to).

              Comment


                So, how did you vote?

                Fuckface May's refusal to address the Dail this week
                I'd forgotten.

                She's completely got away with that.

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                  So, how did you vote?

                  Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                  Originally posted by Lang Spoon
                  Fuckface May's refusal to address the Dail this week
                  I'd forgotten. She's completely got away with that
                  Rollergirl won't even answer a simple question from a tame Tory hack like Andy Marr. Why do you think she'd be any more open in Dublin? I can imagine her response to Deputy Spoony from Upper Culchesia North West. "Er, what language is that man speaking, is it Gaelic?"

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                    So, how did you vote?

                    Perhaps the contempt for Ireland (the Republic and the GFA) makes sense- you don't negotiate with your own hostage.

                    Comment


                      So, how did you vote?

                      The Sun looks to have changed a picture of Gina Miller to make her more black.

                      Comment


                        So, how did you vote?

                        Duncan Gardner wrote:
                        Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
                        Originally posted by Lang Spoon
                        Fuckface May's refusal to address the Dail this week
                        I'd forgotten. She's completely got away with that
                        Rollergirl won't even answer a simple question from a tame Tory hack like Andy Marr. Why do you think she'd be any more open in Dublin? I can imagine her response to Deputy Spoony from Upper Culchesia North West. "Er, what language is that man speaking, is it Gaelic?"
                        There's a foreign photo op in it for her. Prime Ministerial.

                        Maybe we're not in Pat Buchanan 1992 territory where if you see a leader on TV abroad, it means they're letting you down at home.

                        Comment


                          So, how did you vote?

                          Tubby Isaacs wrote: The Sun looks to have changed a picture of Gina Miller to make her more black.
                          We had this discussion before. Most newspapers boost the brightness of all of their photos. the Sun doesn't do it to the same extent. You can see the difference right at the start of this video, where you have a photograph of Gina Miller, and a video from the same event, and you can see that she is noticeably darker in the video. But that raises questions about why everyone else brightens their photos and why the sun doesn't

                          Comment


                            So, how did you vote?

                            Indeed it does.

                            In other news, Flintshire voted 56-44 for Leave. Snobby latte drinking liberal elite boss doesn't sound too happy.

                            Airbus boss Brexit warning: 'We are entering a dangerous phase'
                            Airbus employs 6,000 people at Broughton in Flintshire and thousands more in businesses involved in the supply chain for the site. Airbus has 600 EU workers in the UK and 1,800 Brits in Europe.

                            He added that impediments to the free movement of products between sites could impact long term future investment decisions.
                            Chief operating officer Tom Williams told MPs that Washington would be "delighted" if free movement was hit.
                            He added that the US would make decisions based on the benefits to US rival Boeing and that he was sceptical that the World Trade Organisation (WTO) was effective at resolving disputes.
                            The BBC reported that he said relying on WTO rules if an EU deal could not be reached was not a "sensible fallback position".

                            Comment


                              So, how did you vote?

                              Fuckin eejits.

                              Not good for IndyRef2. Sillars type Lexiters seem a bigger constituency than would be comfy.

                              Comment


                                So, how did you vote?

                                Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                                Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
                                Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs
                                Originally posted by Lang Spoon
                                Fuckface May's refusal to address the Dail this week
                                I'd forgotten. She's completely got away with that
                                Rollergirl won't even answer a simple question from a tame Tory hack like Andy Marr. Why do you think she'd be any more open in Dublin? I can imagine her response to Deputy Spoony from Upper Culchesia North West. "Er, what language is that man speaking, is it Gaelic?"
                                There's a foreign photo op in it for her. Prime Ministerial.

                                Maybe we're not in Pat Buchanan 1992 territory where if you see a leader on TV abroad, it means they're letting you down at home.
                                maybe it's that. maybe it's the prospect of addressing a parliament where literally every single TD thinks you're insane to be leaving the EU, and that every thing that you are saying is nonsense and lies based on delusion. Oh and everyone would be fucking furious about the border, and the damage that brexit is already doing to large swathes of the Irish economy.

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                                  So, how did you vote?

                                  Lang Spoon wrote: Fuckin eejits.

                                  Not good for IndyRef2. Sillars type Lexiters seem a bigger constituency than would be comfy.
                                  Yeah I saw that. There's very little sense in a situation where you vote to leave the union, vote to leave the EU, then vote to stay in the union. I've listened to (no I haven't) and I understand the concerns of these people, and I've come to the conclusion that they are either too fucking stupid, or too much of a gobshite to be allowed vote. What you have isolated here is scotland's Politically volatile insane constituency. There's one in every country. We have one in ireland. It's quite large. This is not to be confused with scotland's politically stable but insane constituency (Loyalists. Remain, Leave, Remain voters.) These are people that hold pretty unjustifiable views, but at least they can fucking stick to them.)

                                  There's a temporary problem at the moment in the UK, and that that over half the population think that Brexit is going to be a good idea. That's not an idea that is going to stay so popular over the next year. That is going to change a lot of people's opinions on a lot of different things. It's not clear that when people were voting for brexit they were voting for rocketing inflation, the destruction of export industries, a flood of jobs leaving, and the privatization of the NHS to strike a really shitty deal with the US. Phillip Hammond keeps threatening to turn the UK into the singapore of europe if they don't get their impossible deal with the EU. I can't imagine that that is going down too well in Scotland.

                                  Anyway. Someone has to eventually make the really obvious case, in back in 1973 Scotland's GDP per capita was twice as high as Ireland's. Now it's nearly the other way around. The economy of the republic of Ireland is now about as big as the economy of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland combined, but with only four ninths of the population. And It's not like we've been blessed with a particularly brilliant political class, or that we haven't made horrendous mistakes along the way. Denmark was about as economically productive as scotland when they joined the European union. Now they've created the richest economy (for its size) in europe, with the most equal society in the world.

                                  It's very difficult to argue that Scotland, wales or Northern Ireland have particularly benefited economically from being ruled by london. Particularly when you consider what other similar sized countries, attached to a much larger neighbour have managed under their own steam. It's important for Scots to remember that the constitutional future of their country is in the hands of Boris Johnson, a man who is wandering around europe insulting everyone and telling them to buy Scotch Whisky, and Liam Fox, a delusion moron, who 100 years ago would have been given a bottle of scotch and a revolver over that werrity business.

                                  Comment


                                    So, how did you vote?

                                    Interestingly, the SDLP and SNP have teamed up on a White Paper amendment designed to obstruct passage until the devolved institutions are consulted - will Plaid join the signatories?

                                    Comment


                                      So, how did you vote?

                                      At which point was Wales supposed to have broken with"London" and boldly gone off to be a rich country?

                                      Comment


                                        So, how did you vote?

                                        Ireland is exceptional. And got to be exceptional on the back of very low business tax. That's not exactly how Wales sees itself.

                                        Comment


                                          So, how did you vote?

                                          Ireland isn't exceptional. Ireland became an overnight success after thirty years of hard slog. When Eastern European countries talk about the model they are following to catch up with the EU average, they talk about following the Irish model. (I'm not talking about the unique factors surrounding Ireland, but the broad export driven economic model) There's no reason why an independent scotland or wales couldn't have done exactly the same as Ireland over the last couple of decades. Particularly in regard to tax. But it's not just about tax. Multinational companies based in the UK don't pay much more tax that companies in ireland. The headline rate is essentially meaningless.

                                          The primary difference between ireland and the UK's celtic fringe is that since joining the EU the Irish government has been able to follow an entirely different path to the those smaller countries in the UK. Ireland has been able to operate as the textbook Western European small open economy, whereas the countries of the UK have been following policies set to suit the southern half of a very badly run economy, that made a series of horrific economic errors.

                                          The difference between the Irish economy and the UK economy is that the Irish economic model has always been based around exports. Ever since cromwell we've exported nearly everything we've ever made. and 60 years ago we changed our economic model from an ill advised attempt at self-sufficiency, to convincing people to set up factories here, to export around europe. Now this took a long time to take off, but we started doing this long before everyone else. And basically all of our economic growth over the last 30 years is us selling more and more stuff to people who aren't the UK.

                                          The other thing is that if you are dependent on exports, you always have to be very concerned with productivity and competitiveness, because it's no longer good enough to be just competitive in the UK, you have to be competitive right across the EU. Also you wind up diversifying your markets a lot as I mentioned above. Ireland used to do the same proportion of its trade with the UK that Scotland does. But that's all changed. We're contemplating losing england as a trading partner almost entirely.

                                          This meant that when the floodgates for FDI opened in the 1990's, Ireland had 30 years of experience at attracting FDI, and having had their fingers burned with low productivity, low wage manufacturing, we focused on attracting high productivity manufacturing. Then on the services side, companies looking to set up in an english speaking european capital, could set up in London with london costs, or they could set up in Dublin, which was vastly cheaper, and the country was flooded with relatively highly educated young people, that didn't have to be paid very much. Tax alone wasn't going to do it.

                                          If you're a small open economy that has to import much of its goods, there's basically no point in running a deficit to stimulate the economy, because the money quickly flows straight out of the economy, and you just make your debt situation worse. We learned that the fucking hard way in the 80s. This influx of foreign investment, was combined with a generally balanced budget, which meant that our interest payments were falling very quickly, but also it meant that economic growth translated into expansionary budgets, and much higher levels of domestic investment. Now the problem was that we decided to turn this into a bullshit property boom, but that's not a necessary part of our economic story. That comes more under the heading of a horrific mistake.

                                          But essentially while the UK has spent the last 40 years destroying their industrial base, and hammering their productivity levels, and deliberately unbalanced their economy in pursuit of class warfare, Ireland has gone entirely the opposite direction. one of these things is a much more successful way to run your country. Scotland is no different to Ireland. an independent scotland in 1979 could have done everything that Ireland did, starting from a much higher base. They could have started from a similar position to Denmark.

                                          Either way, there's a lot to be said for being independent. It means that the first question in cabinet when something is being discussed is "how does this affect scotland." I wonder how far down the list of questions that comes when they're having discussions in downing street? I mean christ knows where Northern Ireland and wales come in these discussions.

                                          Comment


                                            So, how did you vote?

                                            Would an independent Scotland in 1979 be like Denmark? Nah. No way. They'd have so much oil that they would be like Norway.

                                            And despite all that, the Scots swallow all the propaganda they are fed about the Barnett Formula.

                                            the country was flooded with relatively highly educated young people
                                            Too bad that third level education in Ireland is slowly being eroded.

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                                              So, how did you vote?

                                              well thankfully we have a very relaxed attitude to migrants

                                              Comment


                                                So, how did you vote?

                                                The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: well thankfully we have a very relaxed attitude to migrants
                                                Currently reading The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists , and one paragraph is striking about UK attitudes:

                                                "The papers they read were filled with vague and alarming accounts of the quantities of foreign merchandise imported into this country, the enormous number of aliens constantly arriving, and their destitute conditions, how they lived, the crimes they committed and the injury they did to British trade. These were the seeds which, cunningly sown in their minds, caused to grow up within them a bitter undiscriminating hatred of foreigners."

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