Champions League Finals 2016

[garcia]

Champions League Finals 2016

he wouldn't have taken any notice because he's used to it - there are tons of them doing that, including some of the high profile ones. seems like in spain it's always been taken as read that journalism is ideological and biased. if you write about football then you're writing as a supporter of a particular team, for a particular market. political journalism seems to be similar.

i don't like it but that seems to be the way it is there. it's basically the exact opposite of america where journalists are supposed to pretend to have no views on anything. i'm not sure about that either but i guess it's preferable to the spanish way.

[Borracho]

Champions League Finals 2016

zidane appears to be a boring corporate drone, which was disappointing.

Zidane is not especially bright, by all accounts, despite his strangely cerebral image.

Real Madrid must be one of the most ordinary teams ever to win it, certainly given their resources and wealth. I actually just had to google what the result was of their second leg against Man City, that's how forgettable the tie was. Ronaldo finished as top scorer again, but pretty much all of his 16 goals were scored against middling-to-bad teams. Six against Malmo, five against Shakhtar Donetsk, one in each leg against Roma. The hat-trick against Wolfsburg was impressive, but even then, Wolfsburg were to this year's competition what Schalke 04 were to 2010-11.

Atletico Madrid had to overcome Barcelona and Bayern Munich along the way, both of whom would surely have beaten Real Madrid. Then they were on top for the majority of the final, and the prize ends up slipping out of their hands because Juanfran is simply too physically fucked to be able to take a good hard penalty. There's something sickening about the whole thing to be honest. The last thing the world of football needs is Real Madrid having yet another European Cup fall into their lap.

[jason voorhees]

Champions League Finals 2016

Yes.

Interview skill is the measure of intelligence.

Can't wait for Barbara Walters to manage the next Champions League winner.

[Borracho]

Champions League Finals 2016

Who said anything about interviews?

[Janik]

Champions League Finals 2016

That isn't the only evidence that suggests Zidane is not the brightest tool in the box.

One thing that certainly isn't a measure of intelligence is the ability to pick the right pass on the Football field. Some spectacularly dim people have had the kinesthetic sense in spades. 'Footballing intelligence' is absolutely no indicator of general brain power.

I'm sure I've talked about the cultural cringe that Anglophones have regarding Zidane on here before. An uncommunicative Frenchman with a known violent streak is perceived as some kind of moody sophisticate, whereas an uncommunicative Englishman with the same short fuse is perceived as thick as two short planks (cf. Mr Wayne Rooney).

[anton pulisov]

Champions League Finals 2016

Hey, if Frank de Boer can be a manager then anybody can.

[jason voorhees]

Champions League Finals 2016

Janik wrote: That isn't the only evidence that suggests Zidane is not the brightest tool in the box.

One thing that certainly isn't a measure of intelligence is the ability to pick the right pass on the Football field. Some spectacularly dim people have had the kinesthetic sense in spades. 'Footballing intelligence' is absolutely no indicator of general brain power.

I'm sure I've talked about the cultural cringe that Anglophones have regarding Zidane on here before. An uncommunicative Frenchman with a known violent streak is perceived as some kind of moody sophisticate, whereas an uncommunicative Englishman with the same short fuse is perceived as thick as two short planks (cf. Mr Wayne Rooney).

Now Wayne Rooney is equal to ZZ ?

Holy Shit.

Let me clarify.

A) I am not nominating Zinedine Zidane as Secretary General of the United Nations.

B) Nor the Dean of Oxford, Harvard, Princeton, or Apex Tech Universities.

C) I am not saying he will be building the next atom collider.

I acknowledge he:

D) Headbutted a dumber dum-dum for saying he'd rather have his sister's shirt. In a World Cup Final.

E) Is not going to be solving human migration in the upcoming climate crisis.

HOWEVER....

F) He is a brilliant football mind who won the fuck out of that final.

G) When "that was an ordinary Real Madrid team" gets bandied about, it was due to ZZ's brilliance as a footballing mind that led to that victory.

I was impressed. His true managerial legacy will be measured against all of the greats, only because he's off to an incredible start. But just as he was as a player, he's already well on his way to being on Cruyff and Beckenbauer's level.

[Kevin S]

Champions League Finals 2016

Just like Roberto Di Matteo?

[G-Man]

Champions League Finals 2016

[quote=Borracho post=1213235]

The hat-trick against Wolfsburg was impressive, but even then, Wolfsburg were to this year's competition what Schalke 04 were to 2010-11.

That would be the Schalke that topped their group with Benfica and Olympic Lyon, and then knocked out Valencia and Inter Milan convincingly (beating the latter 5-2 at the San Siro) before folding against Manchester United?

And the Wolfsburg that beat Manchester United and Real Madrid this season.

I don't quite get the "even then" qualifier.

[Borracho]

Champions League Finals 2016

Schalke were hopeless in the 2011 semi-final, every bit as hopeless as Man United were against Wolfsburg a few months ago. Beating Inter 5-2 was eye-catching but it said more about the state Inter were in.

F) He is a brilliant football mind who won the fuck out of that final.

Another way of looking at it is that he oversaw an undeserved 1-1 draw against a team who operate on maybe a quarter of Real Madrid's budget. Two of his defenders should have been sent off in normal time but weren't, and his team were on top for about 45 minutes out of 120. If that's footballing greatness, things must have slipped a fair bit lately.

[ad hoc]

Champions League Finals 2016

Pepe: 1983-2016 http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/pepe-1983-2016-20160531109202

[jason voorhees]

Champions League Finals 2016

* He didn't get them into the competition - they had already qualified under the previous manager
Indeed. But they were playing better and were better organized than under the previous manager.

* His team possesses a huge financial advantage over all but one domestic opponent
Indeed. But they haven't won every title over the past 10 years. You still have to win with that pressure of having a huge financial advantage. Let's not make a mile-long list of the wealthy teams that went down in flames.

* He has one of the greatest players of all time to call on as well as the world's most expensive player
Indeed. And they're playing well and happy and respectful of the manager. One of those players has been known to sink managers when he gets pissy. He kept C-Ron from getting pissy, which takes skill as a manager.

* Their route to the final was incredibly easy and they came within a hair's breadth of being knocked out to a team that had never reached the knock-out rounds before
Indeed. And they kept fighting and didn't panic, with the added pressure of all of that.

As for crediting him with winning the final - Atlético missed two penalties and were able to deal with everything Real threw at them.
Not entirely true. Real could've scored 2 or 3 more (Oblak had some absolutely incredible saves,) and took the game to Atletico in the first half. Scoring early showed they were not afraid of Atletico's counterattack, and they put Simeone's crew on their heels. Real's keeper was extremely quick on pks, and Griezmann already missed against him this season. That can't be discounted.

Atletico is an almost-great team. That whole "Atletico's road was harder" bit is only saying "Atletico had already beaten the best teams in the world." Of which, the "road was harder" is not the best argument when they had a few weeks of rest and they are more than content to defend and counter, which is not equal to Barcelona's high line press or Bayern's flying up the wings.

Their keeper also performed really poorly in the shoot-out. What evidence is there, in all of that, that a "brilliant football mind" is at work?
I'd argue ZZ had a great understanding of the structure and realities of his club, and built a well-organized side that defended as a team and attacked as a team and won most of their games as a team. All of those goofy mistakes that S-Ram and Pepe made over the years, those boneheaded goof-ups and screw-ups, were simply missing.

A shootout is it's own beast. In the 70s and 80s, there was the "goalies have no chance so they should just guess." Once they started guessing, the Panekas and fakes started. So Pumpido of Argentina in '90 started reacting and making saves, which put the pressure on the shooters. Then the shooters started blasting the ball. So keepers started making educated guess based on foot placement, so shooters developed the stutter-step to throw their timing off.

It's a poker game. If Simeone didn't prepare his keeper for Réal's kicks, then that's to his discredit. If he did and Réal changed their kicks around (great shooters should be able to hit all 6 placements on each side of the net,) then that's to their credit. As I've said for nearly 16 years on otf, when a keeper looks stupid, you must always look at the skill of the shooter.

It seems to me that Zidane's big achievement has been to keep the galacticos onside and believing in the team and also to capitalise on the clearly massive neurosis that Atlético have now developed about meeting Real in the Champions League. Don't get me wrong, Zidane might go from strength to strength as a manager. But at the minute I'd say Real's most recent win had more in common with Liverpool's in 2005 and Chelsea's in 2012 and even in both of those cases the winners had a far tougher route to the final than Zidane had this year.
Agree with the Liverpool and Chelsea comparisons and comparisons with Roberto Di Matteo.

I simply feel ZZ put a great team together, and had a great game plan for Atletico.

So save this and frame it:

Zinedine Zidane will be regarded as a brilliant manager. He will win 2 more La Liga titles and 2 more Champions League finals by the year 2021.

[Tony C]

Champions League Finals 2016

I have to say I was very impressed with Real Madrid defensively in both semi-final legs against Manchester City - they were very organised and difficult to break down (well City didn´t, of course). The introduction of the impressive Casemiro into the regular starting line up - ahead of the more attack-minded Isco or James - shows that Zidane recognised a weakness in protecting the back four and addressed it.

[ursus arctos]

Champions League Finals 2016

Of course, Benitez had been a strong advocate for Casemiro before being sacked. Zidane was able to convince/overrule FloPer that they needed him.

[jason voorhees]

Champions League Finals 2016

When I say "great," I mean "Champions League Champion," not "Barcelona 2015."

I mean he understands the inner workings of Real Madrid. The politics, the history, etc.

And again, by extolling how great Atletico was, you're kind of proving that Réal was oretty good as well.

I agree that we'll see how history treats him. But I think ZZ is more along the lines of Guardiola than Van Basten. (And I was cheering for Atletico, and I've loved Simeone as a coach since he won that playoff against Boca for Estudiantes. And for giving Veron one last great run.)

[jason voorhees]

Champions League Finals 2016

Almost a word-for-word recap of everything on here regarding ZZ.