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    #51
    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

    Patrick Thistle wrote: Some notes here from a previous thread

    And more notes from earlier in that thread

    Most of these are in response to OTF's resident Kipper, Luke. Who strangely never answered any of them except to admit that, yes, he doesn't like 'them' (ie foreigners) telling 'us' (ie proud Britons) what to do.
    Not quite. Them are people who don't live here, Us are people who do. It's a fairly simple and popular human concept. Strange in your world maybe.

    As the only OTF'er who openly voted for the UKIP last year, am I now contractually obliged to get into it on the subject of the EU, at your's or anybody else's behest?. I couldn't care less about convincing anyone really, most here have made there decision.

    Put yourself in my place, different kind of fun mate.

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      #52
      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

      Luke R wrote: Not quite. Them are people who don't live here, Us are people who do. It's a fairly simple and popular human concept. Strange in your world maybe.
      Hold on, I'm one of Them and I live here. How does that work then?

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        #53
        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

        I don't think you can live here and there, from what I am reading of Luke's definition.

        Luke, while, as you know, I can't be doing with people bringing up your Kipperness all over the board on completely unrelated threads, I think that, after being honest about it, it would be naive to think that you won't end up representing the Euro-sceptic view on here at least - especially if you enter a thread specifically about Europe.

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          #54
          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

          I don't live here and there, only here. I am quite literally here right now, sponging off the NHS and crowding out the locals. Go me.

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            #55
            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

            Exactly and he said that "Them are people who don't live here" and you do live here so you are one of us.

            Yes, you are. You can't do anything about it now. You have to queue, say sorry for things not your fault and talk about the weather like the rest of us.

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              #56
              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

              Cool beans. I do most of that already to be fair.

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                #57
                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                Who is going to be the Brave Defender of Albion who suggests building an impregnable barrier and having the Euros pay for it?

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                  #58
                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                  In a surprise boost to the Prime Minister, Theresa May says she thinks it's something she can support.

                  Apart from headbangers like Grayling, surely most of the Cabinet were always going to support Cameron. It's the same thing as with Stella Creasey and being persuaded by Hillary Benn on Syria.

                  I don't think there's going to be too much of a problem in the Conservative Party. Some members might walk out, but they don't really need them given the money and media help they have.

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                    #59
                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                    The Mail, whatever else their faults, seem to be staying clear of Cameron turd polishing. They point out that the DWP will be paying 28 different levels of child benefits.

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                      #60
                      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                      Don't vote . If the turnout is low but the out campaign win all sorts of shit will hit all sorts of fans .

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                        #61
                        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                        Funny you mention that. This quote is from Conservative backbencher Steve Baker

                        “This in-at-all costs deal looks funny, it smells funny, it might be superficially shiny on the outside but poke it and it's soft in the middle.

                        “Will my right honourable friend admit to the House he has been reduced to polishing poo?”
                        I think that E10's wish is going to come true pretty quickly - hopefully.

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                          #62
                          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                          That's a good line.

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                            #63
                            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                            Ah, Jah would have tidied it up and tratorello would have delivered it better.

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                              #64
                              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                              Bored of Education wrote: I don't think you can live here and there, from what I am reading of Luke's definition.

                              Luke, while, as you know, I can't be doing with people bringing up your Kipperness all over the board on completely unrelated threads, I think that, after being honest about it, it would be naive to think that you won't end up representing the Euro-sceptic view on here at least - especially if you enter a thread specifically about Europe.
                              If people live in the UK they deserve to be treated the same as everyone else and behave as everyone else is expected to behave.

                              I appreciate a good few people's even-handedness on here, including yours Bored.

                              I'm not Euro-sceptic, I'm EU-sceptic.

                              I'm not quite sure why the broader left, which I'd now lump Cameron's closer cabal in with, are hung up on the EU. It's like a weird union between internationalist free movement of labour utopianists and faceless rich banking scum. Neither of which care that much about the smaller picture but see the EU as a means to an end.

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                                #65
                                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                The broader left IS divided on the EU. Understandably. It's liberals that are more starry-eyed.

                                But we're likely to get offered the most appalling and reactionary terms, and grounds, for exit. So it's hard for people on the left to run with the Out campaign.

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                                  #66
                                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                  Bored of Education wrote: Ah, Jah would have tidied it up and tratorello would have delivered it better.
                                  Tratorello still have that traction-engine left foot?

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                                    #67
                                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                    Luke R wrote:
                                    Originally posted by Bored of Education
                                    I don't think you can live here and there, from what I am reading of Luke's definition.

                                    Luke, while, as you know, I can't be doing with people bringing up your Kipperness all over the board on completely unrelated threads, I think that, after being honest about it, it would be naive to think that you won't end up representing the Euro-sceptic view on here at least - especially if you enter a thread specifically about Europe.
                                    If people live in the UK they deserve to be treated the same as everyone else and behave as everyone else is expected to behave.

                                    I appreciate a good few people's even-handedness on here, including yours Bored.

                                    I'm not Euro-sceptic, I'm EU-sceptic.

                                    I'm not quite sure why the broader left, which I'd now lump Cameron's closer cabal in with, are hung up on the EU. It's like a weird union between internationalist free movement of labour utopianists and faceless rich banking scum. Neither of which care that much about the smaller picture but see the EU as a means to an end.
                                    Podemos, Syriza, SF, etc have moved from outright Euroscepticism to seeing their struggles as part of a common popular campaign against austerity and capitalism, thus seeing the EU institutions as a means of networking, using them as part of a long-term project to orient them towards the far-left perspective. Similarly, social democracy has literally always been internationalist, aiming to write treaties from socialist perspectives. Of course, EFD is a united front on the right, but generally they seem to believe nations can thrive in "splendid isolation", reminding one of the "Continent cut off by Fog" headline.

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                                      #68
                                      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                      Jesus, the BBC 10 O'Clock news was fucking depressing. Twenty minutes of talking about Cameron's EU deal and analysing if it will really stop immigrants comin' over 'ere.

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                                        #69
                                        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                        BBC News is run by two blokes from the Times, with Craig Oliver on the blower to their bosses if they attempt to set an agenda independent of Downing Street.

                                        Fleet Street very rude about the deal. Wonder what they'll do longer term. Act like the whole subject is boring, and look over there, football!

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                                          #70
                                          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                          E10 Rifle wrote: The broader left IS divided on the EU. Understandably. It's liberals that are more starry-eyed.

                                          But we're likely to get offered the most appalling and reactionary terms, and grounds, for exit. So it's hard for people on the left to run with the Out campaign.
                                          You'll understand what I mean as the broader left are the left and the liberals. Certainly from a UK perspective they overwhelmingly stand side by side with their yearning to stay in the EU. It seems those on the left who are anti-EU seem so meek and insignificant as to barely matter.

                                          On the whole, all the UK In's are now in a position where they have David Cameron fighting their argument for them. What a state. Corbyn trying to exploit the unbelievably huge untapped (on the whole) rifts in the Tory party could really affect the referendum result. I'm seriously hoping Cameron's luck runs out on this one. It's all very messy atm, and not at all bad for the Out's. If I was the left-left I'd say screw the EU let's really fuck the tories.

                                          What the In's do need to understand either way is that vast amounts of people are deeply unhappy with the way the EU has gone, and if they're interested in representing as much as dictating, they'll adjust accordingly, otherwise it will just keep rearing it's head time after time. Until we really do leave.

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                                            #71
                                            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                            I couldn't really follow what the BBC News' message was. They said that even if Cameron reduces benefits for EU employees, they'll still be comin' over 'ere because they get paid more to pick crops in UK fields than in Romanian fields. Their conclusion would appear to be that Cameron's deal doesn't stop EU migrants comin' over 'ere because minimumm wage in the UK is so generous (seven times the Romanian one, as they pointed out).

                                            Depressing on so many levels.

                                            Still, it's going to be hilarious when the UK votes for Brexit.

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                                              #72
                                              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                              Diable Rouge wrote:

                                              Podemos, Syriza, SF, etc have moved from outright Euroscepticism to seeing their struggles as part of a common popular campaign against austerity and capitalism, thus seeing the EU institutions as a means of networking, using them as part of a long-term project to orient them towards the far-left perspective. Similarly, social democracy has literally always been internationalist
                                              Not sure about internationalism there. There was always some insularity on the left here with regard to the EC/EU.

                                              Kinnock to his credit got the position changed before the 1987 Election, before Delors made addressed the TUC or Labour Conference.

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                                                #73
                                                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                Kunssberg has been turd polishing.

                                                He wanted his party to stop banging on about Europe - to escape the bad tempers of Tory history.
                                                But David Cameron like all political leaders, was trapped by his own party's past, and sought a way out, promising a renegotiation and then a public vote on our place in the EU.
                                                But with the deal now emerging, he is perhaps, trapped again?
                                                This deal is not so awful that he could justifiably throw up his hands and walk away. One cabinet minister pondered - is Britain really going to flounce out, be the teenager that goes to their room, and slams the door and then sulks, wondering what to do?
                                                But the deal is not so good that he can argue truthfully that he is keeping every one of his election promises.
                                                In most walks of life it's well, rather normal, to admit that negotiations mean compromise - not so, perhaps misguidedly, in politics, where David Cameron was repeatedly reluctant today to accept he's had to budge at all.
                                                But while the handful of Eurosceptic cabinet ministers are still under orders not to speak out, the very fact that there is now a deal in black and white, even in draft, allows the Prime Minister to start making his case.
                                                Fair? Effective? In the end you'll decide. And for most voters it will be the broad contours of this campaign - not the details of this deal that make the difference.
                                                Move along, nothing to see here. Brave Cameron, if only he weren't held back by his party!

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                                                  #74
                                                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                  Cameron is an idiot. The only thing that Little England, UKIP and the UKIP wing of the Tory party are interested in is stopping EU immigrants. But freedom of movement of EU citizens is pretty much the defining cornerstone of any country's EU membership. Surely Cameron knew that he was never going to be able to negotiate otherwise, so no matter what he came back with, it was never going to be good enough for the Little Englanders.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                    And reducing immigration would blow the OBR's growth and deficit forecasts away.

                                                    I bet Osborne is on the phone to them as we speak.

                                                    "Revise down, revise down, we're cutting immigration".

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