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Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

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    #26
    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

    That's the issue though isn't it - people think it's imposed but don't see it the other way round. As our resident Kipper framed it, people don't liek them telling us what to do.

    But equally in the EU we get to tell others what to do. The fact that it often feels like we don't is down to the very poor political calibre of our representatives there (evidenced by how many UKIP MEPs there are).

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      #27
      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

      Not just the MEPs. UK governments (especially when led by Cameron) make out that they're outnumbered by loons who've got it in for Britain, while being undermined by a Fifth Column in the Foreign Office.

      Hague had to do a bit of a reverse ferret having given it large in Opposition with his "referendum lock".

      I imagine his diplomats had a quiet word. Hague was more sheepish later, talking about how Britain could do well if the single market in services were expanded.

      Osborne managed to be just as brazen about "too much Europe" while telling it to just complete the single market, as if no contradiction at all.

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        #28
        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

        What EEG - and others - said. In the current political climate, a post EU exit British government would do nothing more than get rid of whatever last vestiges of social democracy remain in European statutes and either keep or amplify the most rapaciously capitalist bits in order to "compete."

        And from the point of view of the economy, I just can't take the idea that the EU would do anything other than be punitive in any post-exit negotiations, and rightly so, seriously. If I were any other nationality, I'd long ago have decided that the UK is more trouble than it's worth in the EU. Our politicians and media just sound like such... dicks, whenever they get onto the subject.

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          #29
          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

          I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to vote. The choice is to vote for something awful or to vote for awful people to try to make life worse.

          If there was a half-decent "vote to stay in" campaign which acknowledged this, that would be better. But there won't be. It'll be all shitty business wank and suchlike. Or bollocks about how great the EU is for workers. Or other bollocks. All bollocks, anyway. Hope that's clear.

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            #30
            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

            Too many xenophobic bigots on the 'Out' campaign though.

            If not the politicians directly, then definitely their supporters.

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              #31
              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

              As GConstanza says, consider this: A vote to leave is a vote for Nigel Farage's raison d'etre.

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                #32
                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                TonTon wrote: I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to vote. The choice is to vote for something awful or to vote for awful people to try to make life worse.

                If there was a half-decent "vote to stay in" campaign which acknowledged this, that would be better. But there won't be. It'll be all shitty business wank and suchlike. Or bollocks about how great the EU is for workers. Or other bollocks. All bollocks, anyway. Hope that's clear.
                The referendum is a straightforward "in or out".

                Not too difficult, surely?

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                  #33
                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                  It's difficult for me to vote in favour of something I'm against, yeah.

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                    #34
                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                    No-one's asking you to vote "in favour of" it, are they?

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                      #35
                      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                      TonTon wrote: I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to vote. The choice is to vote for something awful or to vote for awful people to try to make life worse.

                      If there was a half-decent "vote to stay in" campaign which acknowledged this, that would be better. But there won't be. It'll be all shitty business wank and suchlike. Or bollocks about how great the EU is for workers. Or other bollocks. All bollocks, anyway. Hope that's clear.
                      The best hope for changes to the EU model, ironically, comes from national elections - since the last few months, Socialists now make up the largest bloc on the European Council of national governments, with nine (possibly ten when a Spanish government eventually forms) compared with eight centre-right, seven Liberal, two Conservative, one far-left, and one non-party. So, with the right actually losing ground, there will be more focus on social concerns, rather than unadulterated capitalism.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                        Patrick Thistle wrote: As GConstanza says, consider this: A vote to leave is a vote for Nigel Farage's raison d'etre.
                        It isn't necessarily. Or it shouldn't be. There are ample reasons that Farage would be very dismissive of for wanting Britain to be out of the EU.
                        The problem is they are not what will drive the vote, or drive the aftermath. Leaving will make increase the gap in opportunities between the haves and have nots in Britain, and will do so pretty rapidly.

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                          #37
                          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                          Right before the whopping recession, right?

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                            #38
                            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                            Diable Rouge wrote:
                            The best hope for changes to the EU model, ironically, comes from national elections - since the last few months, Socialists now make up the largest bloc on the European Council of national governments, with nine (possibly ten when a Spanish government eventually forms) compared with eight centre-right, seven Liberal, two Conservative, one far-left, and one non-party. So, with the right actually losing ground, there will be more focus on social concerns, rather than unadulterated capitalism.
                            I'm against the EU per se. As I am against the UK, of course. And England. And these "socialists" are awful right-wing vermin.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                              Here's the deal. Can't imagine it appeasing the Euroskeptics on their hobbyhorses, but plenty of anti-single market stuff in there to make the EU even less integrated.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                Hopefully it will lead, literally, to debilitating drunken fist-fights on the Tory benches. The only point of hope, or interest, in this whole campaign

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                                  #41
                                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                  God, sometimes I wonder how I ever enjoyed reading Eurospeak.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                    You enjoyed it at all? Once? For even five seconds?

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                                      #43
                                      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                      I was young and impressionable.

                                      And it works better in French.

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                                        #44
                                        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                        Any thoughts on how to parse the single rulebook stuff? It sounds on the face of it like they're basically ripping it up, but it could just be the usual horses for courses stuff around EMU/non-EMU states.

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                                          #45
                                          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                          Could be either, which leads me to think the latter is the likely outcome

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                                            #46
                                            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                            I don't think I can convince you how to vote, but maybe I could convince you of how to vote.

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                                              #47
                                              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                              I'm still not sure I can be arsed to vote. I probably will, come the day. Can't have mum turning in her grave.

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                                                #48
                                                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                Anyone with a brain will vote to stay in the EU.

                                                The rest might win, but they'll be wholly and utterly wrong. And will be proven so when their supply of Union Jack Flags, made in Poland (TM) dry up the following year.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                  The change on tax credits for non-UK resident children of workers, which is being presented as a "win" could have been sorted out ages ago in the normal course of business. Or at least the very federalist Guy Verhofstadt thought so in the commission president debates.

                                                  Seems like Cameron's got this by "reassuring" the Eastern members about Defence.

                                                  Defence not being something that's cheap.

                                                  Well done.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                    Osborne a while ago told the EU to get on and complete the single market in services.

                                                    Oh dear.

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