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    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

    Broadly, I am a pro-European culturally and, to a certain extent, politically. I am no nationalist and want to see as many borders come down as possible. I don't believe that those that happen to live on the same island of my birth should have more rights, better pay of standards of living than anyone else. I am concerned about the poor and disadvantaged in all countries and don't think that they should be played off each other in a race to the bottom. The workers movement should be international and recognise no borders, to get all Marxist about it. I also think that the better ideas for human rights, equality and quality of life are mostly, although not exclusively, coming from our east rather than the west.

    However, the EU still hasn't done enough for the poor, disadvantaged and workers in its time. There is no EU-wide minimum wage even though there is a universal currency. Although, EU membership means that workers' right and protections should be universal, I am not sure that they are. Multinational corporations can still play workers off against each other. When the CBI cheerlead for EU membership for the UK, it starts making me suspicious.

    So, what should I vote? My gut instinct is to vote to stay in the EU but is there any argument that my concerns for rights and protection for the poor, disadvantaged and workers would be better off out of the EU?

    #2
    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

    However, the EU still hasn't done enough for the poor, disadvantaged and workers in its time.
    Do you think any of these groups would be any better off if Britain exit the EU?

    Comment


      #3
      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

      Yeah, because leaving the EU with its Working Time Directives and Health and Safety at Work stuff would be just the release the Tories would finally need to further improve workers' rights.

      Comment


        #4
        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

        It certainly looks like your argument is "The EU is very imperfect and should do better". Your argument doesn't seem to be that "We would be better off out of the EU".

        The best argument for Britain leaving the EU is that without David Cameron's bickering, the rest of the EU might be better able to improve the European project.

        But I can see no case in which Britain's departure makes things better for Britain or the British people.

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          #5
          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

          Hence my
          is there any argument that my concerns for rights and protection for the poor, disadvantaged and workers would be better off out of the EU?

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            #6
            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

            So if you pull out of the EU that puts a stop to the race to the bottom?

            How does that work?

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              #7
              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

              Bored of Education wrote: Hence my
              is there any argument that my concerns for rights and protection for the poor, disadvantaged and workers would be better off out of the EU?
              Perhaps ones elsewhere in the EU might be without Cameron acting the cunt in there.

              But that's not a great argument really.

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                #8
                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                You just have to look at all the arguments from respected economists and big business who say a very firm no, compared to the baseless scare stories from the swivel eyed loons like UKIP, the Tory right and the Daily Heil!

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                  #9
                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                  I think that, perhaps, the hypothetical nature of my opening post has clouded what I was asking. Perhaps, "What are the left wing arguments against the EU as per No2EU?"

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                    #10
                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                    Probably romanticism on their part.

                    Sceptics of all kinds don't seem to get that the EU basically sets the rules for non-members in Europe. They aren't going to let Britain sit there ignoring the stuff it wants to and exporting into the Single Market.

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                      #11
                      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                      Bored of Education wrote: When the CBI cheerlead for EU membership for the UK, it starts making me suspicious.
                      The CBI do not speak for the whole of the business community. According to this is is about 8 out of 10 that want to remain. I don't doubt that the reason that most want to remain is because of the financial benefit to their specific company, but I would be far more suspicious of the companies that want to leave (such as JCB, and other companies who do most of their business outside of the EU and would therefore feel little effect from Britain exiting), because they feel that current EU rules on workers rights are reducing their profit margins.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                        The CBI aren't all bad- they make some constructive points about education, infrastructure, diversifying the economy, narrowing the trade gap etc.

                        I'd guess the more boneheaded Institute of Directors might have more Brexiters.

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                          #13
                          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                          Can we ban the term 'Brexit' from any further conversations on here?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                            However, the EU still hasn't done enough for the poor, disadvantaged and workers in its time.
                            That's because Europe is rightwing and nationalistic. That's not the fault of the EU. The disfunctionalism of the EU is a reflection of the democratic will of Europeans. The EU is doing exactly what we are telling it to.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                              As others have said, the whole OP seems to be 'it's not perfect so maybe we should pull out' but it's a lot better than what the Tories would offer on their own.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                There are people on both left and right who point to Norway and say "ahhh!". I've never been to Norway, but I'm going in May, so I'll be intrigued to see what I make of it. I'm led to believe it's about Ł7 a pint.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                  Norway's success has everything to do with oil.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                    You'll be lucky to find a pint that cheap.

                                    Norway is probably a better EU member than Britain is. They essentially incorporate EU law into their own, contribute to EU funds and are part of the Schengen area. They just don't have a say in any of the decision making bodies.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                      I had another thread on this, and would say that, after deliberation (thanks all) I changed my mind; I'm now for option 2 rather than 1.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                        I think less of the EU now than I ever have done, mainly because of its utter contempt for democracy, as exhibited most sharply by the commissioner responsible for the TTIP negotiations with the US, who is on record as saying she "doesn't take her mandate from the peoples of Europe".

                                        But I'm still strongly anti-leaving, for three reasons. First, other countries will screw us if we leave. Second, the Tories will screw the non-rich in the UK even more intensely if free of some EU constraints. Third, for fuck's sake, just compare the well-known politicians speaking up on both sides. The pro-Brexit (sorry, Sean, it's just too handy a coinage) lobby is almost entirely hugely unpleasant individuals - hang 'em and flog 'em Tory types.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                          Some notes here from a previous thread

                                          And more notes from earlier in that thread

                                          Most of these are in response to OTF's resident Kipper, Luke. Who strangely never answered any of them except to admit that, yes, he doesn't like 'them' (ie foreigners) telling 'us' (ie proud Britons) what to do.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                            Evariste Euler Gauss wrote: I think less of the EU now than I ever have done, mainly because of its utter contempt for democracy, as exhibited most sharply by the commissioner responsible for the TTIP negotiations with the US, who is on record as saying she "doesn't take her mandate from the peoples of Europe".
                                            That's just a factual statement. She isn't directly elected, but chosen by the heads of government.

                                            The journo who hyped this up knew that well enough.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                              I agree with EEG really.

                                              And I'm not looking forward to it at all really. The only hope is that we might be able to crack open the popcorn as we sit on the sidelines and watch Tories kick the shit out of each other.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                I'm not either. Think we're coming out of it.

                                                There seem to be 4 Labour MPs for Brexit. Hoey, Stringer, Hopkins and Godsiff.

                                                Maybe Hopkins will be given pause by the fact the Freedom Association made him their Parliamentarian of the Year.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Convince me how to vote in the EU referendum

                                                  This is the bit the FA particularly liked about Hopkins' speech on the EU:

                                                  “Like the hon. Member for Stone, I have deep reservations about the European Union. We have constant talk about Europe, and I have to say over and again that this is about not Europe but the European Union, which is a political structure imposed on some of the countries of Europe. Europe is a wonderful place that I love dearly. I am very Eurocentric: I go there for my holidays, I drink European wine, and I love European culture, history, language – everything. But it is Europe I love, not the European Union.”
                                                  That's dreadful. "Imposed" and a bit of Partridge.

                                                  Comment

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