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    #26
    #ExMuslimBecause

    A awful as that Bradford attack is, you've offered 1 example, while the article EIM posted the page before talks about 115 attacks (that have been reported) in the UK in the last week alone.

    The idea that the former is more of a worry than the latter is clearly nonsense (though of course goes without saying yadda yadda yadda, that the former is not to be condemned, and I hope the bastards who did it are caught and prosecuted)

    Comment


      #27
      #ExMuslimBecause

      The #ExMuslimBecause thing is basically a bunch of white-racists exploiting other peoples' oppressions within Muslim communities.
      When a brave woman like Maryam Namazie is one of the higher profile backers of this campaign then that surely makes your above comment something of a scattershot generalisation.

      I don't understand what the intersection nature of oppressions means, but the manifesto of the Council of Ex-Muslims contains little I would think many of us could argue with.

      1. Universal rights and equal citizenship for all. We are opposed to cultural relativism and the tolerance of inhuman beliefs, discrimination and abuse in the name of respecting religion or culture.
      2. Freedom to criticise religion. Prohibition of restrictions on unconditional freedom of criticism and expression using so-called religious ‘sanctities’.
      3. Freedom of religion and atheism.
      4. Separation of religion from the state and legal and educational system.
      5. Prohibition of religious customs, rules, ceremonies or activities that are incompatible with or infringe people’s rights and freedoms.
      6. Abolition of all restrictive and repressive cultural and religious customs which hinder and contradict woman’s independence, free will and equality. Prohibition of segregation of sexes.
      7. Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.
      8. Protection of children from manipulation and abuse by religion and religious institutions.
      9. Prohibition of any kind of financial, material or moral support by the state or state institutions to religion and religious activities and institutions.
      10. Prohibition of all forms of religious intimidation and threats.

      Comment


        #28
        #ExMuslimBecause

        ad hoc wrote: A awful as that Bradford attack is, you've offered 1 example, while the article EIM posted the page before talks about 115 attacks (that have been reported) in the UK in the last week alone.

        The idea that the former is more of a worry than the latter is clearly nonsense (though of course goes without saying yadda yadda yadda, that the former is not to be condemned, and I hope the bastards who did it are caught and prosecuted)
        While I'm pretty sure there has been a rise in attacks post-Paris, I'm really taken aback that The Independent or any other respectable media source uses figures provided by the thoroughly discredited Tell Mama group.

        Comment


          #29
          #ExMuslimBecause

          I too am upset and worried about the increased number of attacks.
          It entered my mind as well that some muslims might be dropping their religion because they are tired of living with fear.
          However, I soon threw that theory out, as to why the hashtag was created. Because dropping their religion will not make their life easier as far as racist attacks goes. They would have to change name, maybe dye hair, work on a perfect accent if they don't already have one, etc.
          It's much more than entering a mosque once a week.

          It seems this thread is being turned around. I'm sure it will evolve into the big, long thread about islamophobia sooner rather than later.

          I am much more interested in the muslims and their religion and how many are dropping Islam due to what is and has been going on in the Middle East. Especially what IS are doing in the name of it.

          Some people are bright enough to see that IS islam is religion at its worst, and that it has nothing to do with the Islam they were brought up with.
          Some people have always felt that religion is not really something for them and perhaps moving to Europe has made it much easier for them to finally drop it.

          Why wouldn't there be a lot of muslims out there who struggle to believe, are force-fed the religion, and so on?
          Replace Islam with Christian in this thread and there would be no debate.

          But this is all meaningless. The question I had will be kidnapped and instead of discussing muslims dropping their religion it will become 3-4 pages about racism and growing islamophobia. It's almost a given.

          Comment


            #30
            #ExMuslimBecause

            Jesus wrote:
            Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle
            The #ExMuslimBecause thing is basically a bunch of white-racists exploiting other peoples' oppressions within Muslim communities.
            This didn't take long.

            I'm sure there are white-racists making use of this and pointing at it as some sort of evidence in their deranged agenda, but please, "basically a bunch of"?
            That's mental.

            You're saying racists have convinced muslims to drop their religion and go online with it, to prove that the racist are right?
            Or you're saying that the accounts are fake, created by racists?
            Nah, I'm saying a load of white racists are all over that hashtag.

            Comment


              #31
              #ExMuslimBecause

              dalliance wrote: the thoroughly discredited Tell Mama group.
              Thoroughly?! Fucking hell, dalliance, I thought you'd have liked Tell Mama. They work against hard line Islamists, have support from Jewish groups and the Gay community and have been attacked by Andrew Gilligan (only) - and it his article that is the piece of this jigsaw that has been thoroughly discredited.

              Comment


                #32
                #ExMuslimBecause

                It is also a little bit patronizing (at best) to bring up the racist issue as a reason why muslims are becoming exMuslims.
                As if the only thing which would make them drop it, is persecution.
                Like they are not clever enough in that group to have individuals who can think for themselves and that plenty of them can not come up with the idea "hold on, religion is a bunch of shit, I think I will drop it and move on"

                Comment


                  #33
                  #ExMuslimBecause

                  Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote:
                  Originally posted by Jesus
                  Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle
                  The #ExMuslimBecause thing is basically a bunch of white-racists exploiting other peoples' oppressions within Muslim communities.
                  This didn't take long.

                  I'm sure there are white-racists making use of this and pointing at it as some sort of evidence in their deranged agenda, but please, "basically a bunch of"?
                  That's mental.

                  You're saying racists have convinced muslims to drop their religion and go online with it, to prove that the racist are right?
                  Or you're saying that the accounts are fake, created by racists?
                  Nah, I'm saying a load of white racists are all over that hashtag.
                  Oh, sorry. Of that I'm sure.
                  But again, it's not so much the hashtag in itself for me. I'm curious about the phenomenon of muslims dropping their religion.
                  I don't have a single statistic to back it up with but my guess is that there's some sort of peak going on right now, for reasons I've mentioned previously.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    #ExMuslimBecause

                    As the poster who brought this up, I need to refer you to what i actually said "I'm also worried if this is being used by people who are dropping their religion for fear of persecution"

                    Note that "if" there. And yes, I am worried abut this, because I am exceedingly worried about the anti-Muslim rhetoric and attacks in Europe and the US. We have returned to the 1930s, only this time instead of "The Jews" being the ones under attack, the ones the mainstream is demonising and making culpable for everything it is now "The Muslims". It woudn't surprise me in the slightest if some Muslims were at least hiding their faith/identity and it wouldn;t also surprise me if some were actually publicly renouncing it to protect themselves and their families.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      #ExMuslimBecause

                      ad hoc wrote: As the poster who brought this up, I need to refer you to what i actually said "I'm also worried if this is being used by people who are dropping their religion for fear of persecution"

                      Note that "if" there. And yes, I am worried abut this, because I am exceedingly worried about the anti-Muslim rhetoric and attacks in Europe and the US. We have returned to the 1930s, only this time instead of "The Jews" being the ones under attack, the ones the mainstream is demonising and making culpable for everything it is now "The Muslims". It woudn't surprise me in the slightest if some Muslims were at least hiding their faith/identity and it wouldn;t also surprise me if some were actually publicly renouncing it to protect themselves and their families.
                      And I agree 100%

                      Comment


                        #36
                        #ExMuslimBecause

                        dalliance wrote:
                        I don't understand what the intersection nature of oppressions means, but the manifesto of the Council of Ex-Muslims contains little I would think many of us could argue with.

                        5. Prohibition of religious or secular customs, rules, ceremonies or activities that are incompatible with or infringe people’s rights and freedoms.
                        6. Abolition of all restrictive and repressive cultural and religious or secular customs which hinder and contradict woman’s independence, free will and equality. Prohibition of segregation of sexes.
                        7. Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.
                        8. Protection of children from manipulation and abuse by religion and religious or secular institutions.
                        9. Prohibition of any kind of financial, material or moral support by the state or state institutions to religion and religious activities and institutions.
                        10. Prohibition of all forms of religious or secular intimidation and threats.
                        Made some improvements. I disagree with 9. Reckon a ban on gender-segregation is controversial and contradicts some of the other points.

                        Also
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

                        Comment


                          #37
                          #ExMuslimBecause

                          I don't know if this is part of the same question, but it seems to me that quite a large per centage of younger people from Muslim backgrounds in Britain are abandoning large parts of it anyway, in much the same way that most younger (ie under 60) people from a Christian background don't bother go to church anymore, except when their friends' kids get christened (and interesting that people still do that, in far greater numbers than they worry about getting married in a church before actually having children).

                          I think that's a wider thing about the relevance of religion in the modern world, rather than a reflection of current religious conflict (which personally I think is far more complicated than that anyway, certainly a lot of it seems economically driven to me rather than religious).

                          Comment


                            #38
                            #ExMuslimBecause

                            G-Man wrote:

                            Obviously, on a personal level, people find many good uses for religion. It is an act of idiotic arrogance to think that all believers are your intellectual inferiors who fall for snakeoil salesmen. Serious atheists dropped that kind of thought a decade ago.
                            Yes, but I wasn't saying anything negative about individuals finding solace in religion. Now, was I?
                            I wasn't calling individuals morons, or anything. Was I?

                            What I did say on the other hand, was that religion as I've seen it is crap.

                            If there was no religion, people would probably find other ways to find solace. Maybe yoga or re-watching entire seasons of Alf. Hell do I know. But the world would not go under and people would not throw themselves off cliffs in larger numbers, if religion did not exist at all.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              #ExMuslimBecause

                              In the end, it's another religion no different from the other bullshit ones peddled like miracle oil from the back of a wild west wagon.
                              Are you ascribing intellectual capacity to people who buy into "religion no different from the other bullshit ones peddled like miracle oil from the back of a wild west wagon"? It strikes me that such consumers are superstitious fools, and, by implications that you think of people with religious beliefs in that way. That sort of phrasing is from the Ricky Gervais/Bill Maher school of atheism which lost its relevance some time ago.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                #ExMuslimBecause

                                It's all a bit unfair on users of Snake Oil, though, isn't it?
                                There may be some proper medecinal value in Snake Oil, whereas any benefit derived from a belief in a supreme creator can only be psychosomatic.

                                Obviously I'm for synthetic Snake Oil and we should leave the serpents the fuck alone.

                                If only Adam & Eve had adopted the same policy.
                                We'd still be in Eden.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  #ExMuslimBecause

                                  ad hoc wrote:
                                  Originally posted by dalliance
                                  the thoroughly discredited Tell Mama group.
                                  Thoroughly?! Fucking hell, dalliance, I thought you'd have liked Tell Mama. They work against hard line Islamists, have support from Jewish groups and the Gay community and have been attacked by Andrew Gilligan (only) - and it his article that is the piece of this jigsaw that has been thoroughly discredited.
                                  I don't think it was. After Gilligan reported that a lot of their figures quoted were either made up or misprepresented, Tell Mama made a song and dance about it and reported him and The Telegraph to the PCC.

                                  The PCC investigated and threw out their complaint.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    #ExMuslimBecause

                                    dalliance wrote:
                                    Originally posted by ad hoc
                                    Originally posted by dalliance
                                    the thoroughly discredited Tell Mama group.
                                    Thoroughly?! Fucking hell, dalliance, I thought you'd have liked Tell Mama. They work against hard line Islamists, have support from Jewish groups and the Gay community and have been attacked by Andrew Gilligan (only) - and it his article that is the piece of this jigsaw that has been thoroughly discredited.
                                    I don't think it was. After Gilligan reported that a lot of their figures quoted were either made up or misprepresented, Tell Mama made a song and dance about it and reported him and The Telegraph to the PCC.

                                    The PCC investigated and threw out their complaint.
                                    PCC of course being renowned for their fearlessness in censuring the press.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      #ExMuslimBecause

                                      Gilligan's motivations for downplaying anti-Muslim racism aside, the general feeling after that whole controversy was that Tell Mama had done nothing wrong and in fact were committed to searching for the reality (I know you're not going to believe TellMama themselves on this, but the piece they put out arguing their case is strong http://tellmamauk.org/gilligan-the-reductionists/ )

                                      So, let's agree to differ on Gilligan's credibility. By no means and by no definition can anyone say though that Tell MAMA are "thoroughly discredited". That's quite clearly false.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        #ExMuslimBecause

                                        In some places it's dangerous to identify as ex-Muslim, and I think it's always worth supporting those who do. However, the threat is not universal. In France, the proportion of Muslims who identify as "no religion" or only culturally Muslim is about the same as the proportion of Catholics who do the same. (Roughly one-quarter.) And, as has been widely discussed, 'Muslim' as an identity can mark something other than religious belief. To use a facile analogy, you don't become an ex-black person when you stop attending a black church.

                                        Two changes seem to have happened in France over the past 25 years. One, in terms of religious practice, Muslims have become more polarised. The proportion of those (especially men) who attend the mosque irregularly has declined. You either go every Friday or you don't go at all.

                                        Two, there has been a small revival in 'cultural Islam'. More non-practising Muslims, especially younger ones, are doing things like eating halal meat, observing Ramadan, wearing the veil, and planning a pilgrimage to Mecca.

                                        Both of these trends can be seen as evidence of a community closing in on itself, under pressure from both the conservative turn in global Islam and the increase in Islamophobia among white people and institutions.

                                        The present row over school lunches is illustrative of the latter. Several school regions started serving halal meat as the default (in order to save money). Following an uproar orchestrated by the political Right, a committee recommended offering at least one meat-free option in every school. This met virulent opposition from 'secularists' who argue that the state is kowtowing to Islam. For them, laďcité doesn't mean 'every child should have something they can eat', it means 'force Muslim children to abandon halal, or let them starve'.

                                        When the political context is so charged, there's more to saying "I'm an ex-Muslim" than simply "I've given up praying."

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          #ExMuslimBecause

                                          I don't have any problem with the hashtag, of course. I am somewhat wary of the timing of course but, you know, I am not a Muslim so can't really claim to have any real knowledge of why people are leaving Islam and am ill-equipped to comment really.

                                          However, what I do see is a lot of people who have never been Muslims (such as Dawkins, for instance) commenting on whether, when, why and how Muslims should leave Islam. I suppose there is a bit of it on here. It reminds me somewhat of men telling Muslim women whether or not they should wear the hijab or niqab.

                                          Of course, everyone is entitled to have an opinion on anything they want whether they have experience and knowledge on that matter or not but I still feel a touch uneasy. Not as uneasy as the thread title reading as "#ExMuslimBecause by Jesus". That's not going to help, surely.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            #ExMuslimBecause

                                            ad hoc wrote: Gilligan's motivations for downplaying anti-Muslim racism aside, the general feeling after that whole controversy was that Tell Mama had done nothing wrong and in fact were committed to searching for the reality (I know you're not going to believe TellMama themselves on this, but the piece they put out arguing their case is strong http://tellmamauk.org/gilligan-the-reductionists/ )

                                            So, let's agree to differ on Gilligan's credibility. By no means and by no definition can anyone say though that Tell MAMA are "thoroughly discredited". That's quite clearly false.
                                            If I've understood this correctly, Gilligan is basically taking police numbers as the best guide.

                                            I got quite into arguing with him in 2012, when he kept calling Ken Livingstone a liar on the basis of finding one measure that contradicted him and not asking Livingstone for comment.

                                            I am sure I can recall Gilligan saying Livingstone was lying about anti-semitic attacks because the Community Safety Trust produced some figures that said the opposite. He was very dismissive of me when I suggested looking at police numbers.

                                            Can't find the link, sorry.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              #ExMuslimBecause

                                              Two Dutch pranksters cover a bible with the cover of a koran and read passages of it to passers-by. The responses are what you would expect.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                #ExMuslimBecause

                                                Anti Muslim racism is moving to the mainstream http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/05/far-right-muslim-cultural-civil-war

                                                If you don't believe Tell Mama, dalliance, perhaps you will believe Hope Not Hate

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  #ExMuslimBecause

                                                  ad hoc wrote: Gilligan's motivations for downplaying anti-Muslim racism aside, the general feeling after that whole controversy was that Tell Mama had done nothing wrong and in fact were committed to searching for the reality (I know you're not going to believe TellMama themselves on this, but the piece they put out arguing their case is strong http://tellmamauk.org/gilligan-the-reductionists/ )

                                                  So, let's agree to differ on Gilligan's credibility. By no means and by no definition can anyone say though that Tell MAMA are "thoroughly discredited". That's quite clearly false.
                                                  Gilligan is a pretty forensic journalist who lays out all his facts and research on the table. Feel free to pick at them and disprove them if you lare so inclined.

                                                  'the general feeling after that whole controversy was that Tell Mama had done nothing wrong and in fact were committed to searching for the reality' is airy waffle however and it basically demands we blindly accept assertions without bothering to query the veracity of them.

                                                  Those facts. What Tell Mama and Mughal did not tell us was that 57 per cent of its 212 “incidents” took place only online, mainly offensive postings on Twitter and Facebook. They did not say that a further 16 per cent of the 212 reports had not been verified. They forgot to mention that not all the online abuse even originated in Britain. Contrary to the group’s claim of an unending “cycle of violence” and a “wave of attacks”, only 17 of the 212 incidents, 8 per cent, involved the physical targeting of people and there were no attacks on anyone serious enough to require medical treatment. The supposed Bolton attack never happened. There were a further 13 attacks on Islamic buildings, four of them serious.

                                                  And here's a piece about the rather scattershot nature of how we define an Islamophobic (or Anti-Semitic) crime.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    #ExMuslimBecause

                                                    You may think Gilligan is above reproach, but others don't, and he's obviously a journalist with an agenda. But as I say it's better that we just agree to differ on Gilligan, since I suspect we won't ever see eye to eye on him, any more than we will on, say, Nick Cohen.

                                                    That article is interesting, it's true, but the figures that it quotes on the Met's site are, as far as I can see, actually offences that have been officially recorded and regardless of the necessarily vague text over what constitutes Islamophobia or Anti-Semitism, I think we can be pretty sure that there is a fair amount of filtering that goes on and it's not just someone saying "he said bad words to me".

                                                    As a matter of interest do you believe that anti-Muslim hate/rhetoric (and worse) is not an issue that we should be concerned about?

                                                    Comment

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