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    #26
    40 years ago today

    Christ, I thought Halloween was last weekend.

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      #27
      40 years ago today

      "History without the Sex Pistols"

      There would still have been The Ramones, Patti Smith and the pub rock stuff that morphed into the Stiff acts (Costello, Lowe) but it would have been fringe and Peel would still have been playing Jackson Browne, Neil Young and what not (as he did until mid-77; his first all-punk special was August 29th, 1977).

      I think 2Tone/reggae/ska would still have been possible because that reflected a real ground movement in Coventry/Midlands rather than a London-centric scene.

      Manchester - hard to say. Ian Curtis, Buzzcocks, Tony Wilson, Mark E. Smith and later Morrissey would still have tried to create a music scene but whether it would have got beyond a few pubs and maybe a university gig or two, who knows?

      Early 80s - the Bowie/Roxy influences would still have been there. Rock would have had a larger role (as happened later in the 80s with Queen, Bon Jovi etc). Hopefully the truly creative (XTC, Orange Juice, Smiths, Lloyd Cole, Prefab Sprout) would still have found a way through.

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        #28
        40 years ago today

        I would say Glam Rock morphed pretty seamlessly into New Romanticism without much borrowed from punk. Punk if anything seems to have left its biggest legacy in the grunge and indie explosion of the early 90s.

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          #29
          40 years ago today

          Regarding last two comments, I wouldn't particularly argue with them. I would probably say the Punk-era's greatest legacy wasn't musical but the independent DIY way of thinking.

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            #30
            40 years ago today

            The tuneless anti-music of Crass and their ilk did nothing for me and I always preferred the punk bands that could actually play and write songs like the Pistols, the Damned etc.
            More important than technical musical ability was the political activism which emerged from Crass and anarcho punk. Support for animal rights, hunt saboteuring, the A. L. F. veganism/ vegetarianism, squatting rights, anti-capitalist protest movements, the DIY ethic, to name but a few.
            All of the above is much more important than being a clothes horse and worrying about your hair falling down in the rain. People can sneer at this all they want, but it was and remains a lifestyle for many particularly in mainland Europe where the level of organisation (squats with cafés, venues, recording studios, crèches, printing facilities etc) is truly astounding.
            Also, a lot of the bands from the first wave benefitted greatly from being signed to major labels with all the million-dollar production values and promotion that entailed.
            Obvious DIY labels can't provide that kind of production value, but you can clearly hear musical talent in the likes of Zounds, later Crass recordings, Conflict and a load of others if you care to listen.

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              #31
              40 years ago today

              Actually, I have had been enjoying a thought experiment about what would the world be like if there were no Sex Pistols as Satchmo suggests. Well, actually, I think that there is two alternate histories. Firstly, if punk hadn't happened and, secondly, if the Sex Pistols hadn't happened.

              On the first count, as Rogin suggests a mixture of the art school stuff of Roxy Music and the glam stuff like Bowie, Bolan and even Sweets would have ended up New Romantics. New Wave would still be there albeit not under one movement (if it ever was) as Blondie, Television, the Heartbreakers etc. would have come out of Patti Smith, Ramones, MC5, Iggy Pop etc.

              As has been mentioned, over here, Pub Rock would have carried on perhaps evolving to something edgier with Dr Feelgood, Elvis Costello, The Blockheads, Pink Fairies etc. The Pretenders would have been part of this as well (although they weren't punk or even New Wave really). Chrissie Hynde would have been over here anyway, Farndon, Chambers and Honeyman Scott were all in pub rock bands and the latter hated punk.

              As far as punk bands themselves are concerned, the origins of UK punk is so linked with the the Sex Pistols, London SS, the Bromley Contingent, Sex and McLaren that would have to assume all that didn't happen. Most of those musicians, I would have thought, would have either ended up in quasi-pub rock, heavy rock or post-Bowie glam bands and either withered and disappeared or found fame in the Stiff Records, NWOBHM or New Romantic scenes that would have still come along.

              I think a lot of musicians, certainly later on, may have ended up in the pre-NWOBHM scene and a lot of the punk audience would have (and some were) would have been attracted to the speed and energy). I don't mean your Rainbows, Whitesnakes or Judas Priests but certainly a scene that included Motorhead, AC/DC and the harder edged side of that scene. Lemmy was always in or around the fledging punk scene, playing with the Damned a lot, helping Chrissie Hynde out, even teaching Vicious a bit of bass and, of course, forming Motorhead as a British MC5. AC/DC played punk venues and more than stood up to the punk audiences which is hardly surprising as they had been playing in Australian bars to sharpies. NWOBHM was always said to take punk sensibilities but I never really saw it, to be honest. Maybe, PAul Di'anno-era Iron Maiden but Saxon etc, no. They were all accomplished musicians who loved the pyros and bombast of the Deep Purples and Led Zeppelin. The NWOBHM/third wave of punk crossover bands of the early 80s may not have been around - your Anti-Nowhere League, Discharge,GBH, Tank, Venom type bands and, with that, you may not have had the UK/US hardcore scenes that followed. However, thrash metal would have still greatly been there, being more influenced as it as by Motorhead and NOWBHM.

              As far the other scenes that followed, as has been suggested, ska, some of new wave, New romantics would have all been there but, crucially, may have been lesser due to the lesser amount of independent labels. Independent labels themselves would have still been around - Stiff, for instance, was set up before punk effectively by the Feelgoods, Patti Smith released her first record herself in 1974. However, as has been mentioned, the Manchester scene that was very influenced by the Pistols and led to the setting up of Factory wouldn't have been there. Rough Trade wouldn't have been around in all probability and that would have been a great blow to the setting up of many many independent labels.

              As for the other areas of punk culture outside of the music, I think that the fashion side of it, again, would have come out of the art school/glam scene straight into New Romanic scene. The fanzine scene probably wouldn't have erupted as much. The main thing, I think, that wouldn't have been around for a while is the overt politics, as Calvert has mentioned. However, I am not sure that it started with Crass et al. While the Damned weren't political, they did sing broadly anti-authoritarian lyrics. Similarly, the Pistols were more broad brush political and anti-authoritarian (I never worked out Rotten's masterplan for Anarchy in the UK for instance. These attitudes were extremely important though. There was a challenge in them that hadn't really been as focussed before.

              I have to say though that, as much as I am agnostic about them, The Clash were probably the most important in the area of very direct political alliance with music. They genuinely influenced many bands with this approach from Crass, Stiff Little Fingers and, to an extent, the Jam. Of course, a lot of it was ham-fisted, ill thought through and sometimes hypocritical but it did provide the idea of political change through music to many.

              What I would say about several elements of punk that people don't think would have happened with it - the DIY element, the lack of musical proficiency needed, the extremely close proximity to its fans, the challenging and political lyrics - is that they all would have come along with hip-hop anyway. Hip-hop had all the elements for a young black disaffected group that punk did for a young (mostly) white group - a need to produce music quickly and easily, a evolution that side-stepped the music industry (indeed, in some ways, moreso than punk), a direct challenge to authority in many ways - both in the aggressive fairly nihilistic manner of a Schooly D or the focussed political lyrics of Public Enemy and, to an extent, Run DMC. Culturally, hip hop probably has more of a claim to a long term impact than punk. Not only that but it would have still happened without punk.

              The other hypothesis if punk had happened but the Sex Pistols hadn't. Firstly, for the audience, there would be great music, a lot of good fun and excitement that wouldn't happen. The bands directly influenced by the Pistols wouldn't have happened but, the more creative ones may have ended up in some shape or form anyway.

              I think possibly more interesting is what the individuals would have done. Jones and Cook would have probably been in some sort of pub/glam rock band and would have ended up perhaps with the Pretenders, the Feelgoods, Mott The Hoople that sort of thing. I expect. In thinking about it, it would probably be the Professionals but with less high profile. Matlock would have probably still done the Rich Kids or something similar but, again, with a reduced profile.

              Vicious obviously would have been a fat bald alcoholic scaffolder now. Lydon is the enigma. The sort of music that he liked - Captain Beefheart, Hawkwind, dub reggae etc - aren't the sort of things that would accept someone with as little vocal ability as was then required in bands. He didn't go to art school so didn't have those sort of connections. If he didn't end up in manual jobs, I think he could have ended up being a reggae DJ possibly evolving into hip-hop later on and getting involved in the clubs from that. He was obviously always bright so, you never know, the Thatcherite entrepreneurial era that didn't require academic qualifications and ability to succeed may have suited him down to the ground even if the politics didn't

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                #32
                40 years ago today

                Aye, I'd say Lydon's anarchy is more nihilism and chaos than the Crass idea of anarchy.
                Stomping around in Viv creations, wearing swastika armbands and that murder junkie halfwit singing songs about 'killing cats' is the other end of the universe from anarcho punk.
                Weird really how it's related, but it most definitely is.

                Wonder what Lydon thought about the second wave moving his anarchy to what it's become.

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                  #33
                  40 years ago today

                  The anarcho punk connection, fine, but I hope you aren't dismissing the Pistols' wearing of Westwood clothes in talking about "clothes horses". Those clothes were revolutionary, and Vivienne remains an influential force for change. Anyone who thinks fashion is trivial doesn't understand it. People got incredibly upset by the punk look in 76/77 and punks were beaten up, sacked, thrown off college courses for pioneering the look that is now rarified as "culture".

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                    #34
                    40 years ago today

                    Btw ... Glen Matlock says Malcolm had nothing to do with their getting the gig at St Martin's. He was a student there so arranged the gig himself. Malcolm had of course put the band together and was planning a sort of strategy for them, as could be seen from the jottings in his notebook.

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                      #35
                      40 years ago today

                      Wouldn't be punk without a bit of in-fighting, eh?

                      The Viv clothes were no doubt massively important at the time to those who wore them or could afford them, but they were only really revolutionary to pop culture. In themselves clothes and clothes designers can't really influence anything except for temporary trends. Ultimately it's the ideas which win out, not the fasion. Clothes don't induce revolution.
                      Punk rock certainly did a lot for community relations in this neck of the woods in that young people in a polarised society going through a low-intensity civil war had the chance to get together for once in rejecting the old orthodoxies and a lot of it stayed and still does. There was no revolution, but there certainly were positive side-effects.

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                        #36
                        40 years ago today

                        The fashion and ideas were inseparable.

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                          #37
                          40 years ago today

                          Jah Womble wrote: Remarkable moment, but I'd venture that the 'main' fortieth anniversaries will be next year - to mark the release of Anarchy - and 2017 - to mark God Save the Queen/alternative jubilee, etc.
                          And Scotland's victory over England at Wembley that same weekend.

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                            #38
                            40 years ago today

                            But they separated quickly enough when people realised that buying Viv originals and Viv rip-offs mail order from Smash Hits wasn't really revolutionary at all.
                            Don't get me wrong, it was the whole package which attracted me at first - the music, the attitude and the clobber- but there comes a realisation that the world doesn't begin and end with what McClaren or Lydon say or what Viv designs, as important as they were in the beginning.

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                              #39
                              40 years ago today

                              But you just can't beat second-division old punks for outstaying their welcome, hanging around like a bad smell.



                              (That's the Angelic Upstarts BTW.)

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                                #40
                                40 years ago today

                                Mensi is a mate and a thoroughly good bloke.
                                As for hanging around like a bad smell, he isn't playing underneath your window, so what's your beef?

                                I don't know anyone who thinks there is no life beyond Westwood-McLaren and/or the Pistols; in fact they encouraged and inspired us to educate ourselves.

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                                  #41
                                  40 years ago today

                                  Stumpy Pepys wrote: But you just can't beat second-division old punks for outstaying their welcome, hanging around like a bad smell.



                                  (That's the Angelic Upstarts BTW.)
                                  That's also clearly the bassists nephew on the left.
                                  I'm conflicted.Part of me is thinking, 'oh, leave it alone' and on other days I think 'good for you'.
                                  I packed my non-league punk band in 20 years ago because even at 30 I thought it was a younger person's game.
                                  It is what you want it to be though.

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                                    #42
                                    40 years ago today

                                    I love the idea of Mensi hanging around outside Stumpy's gaff screaming 'I'M AN UPSTART - WHAT YOU GONNA DO?'

                                    I don't know anyone who thinks there is no life beyond Westwood-McLaren and/or the Pistols; in fact they encouraged and inspired us to educate ourselves.
                                    And then tried to empty your pockets, particularly McClaren.
                                    I'm not sure he was that worried about anything except the cash.

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                                      #43
                                      40 years ago today

                                      Then you don't know very much about him.

                                      He was very passionate about art, learning, so much so that he kept enrolling at art colleges, sometimes giving a different name, and at one time being at two colleges concurrently.

                                      In his last years, he gave very thoughtful talks about authenticity versus what he called "karaoke culture". I tend to agree with my old chum that if Malcolm was really only concerned with money, he might have been a bit better at making it and keeping it.

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                                        #44
                                        40 years ago today

                                        Well, maybe we're not to believe him then about all that cash from chaos stuff, Flogging A Dead Horse, swindling rocknroll, etc.
                                        The problem is that you couldn't listen to a word he said, a bit like his lead singer.
                                        Did he mean all that, or was it arty bluff?
                                        He was a businessman.

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                                          #45
                                          40 years ago today

                                          Why can't people be more than one thing?

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                                            #46
                                            40 years ago today

                                            Well, you can't claim to be doing it for the sake of revolution or art while knocking out rubbish to line your pocket.

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                                              #47
                                              40 years ago today

                                              I dunno. I don't have a purist position on it, some things he did were brilliant and some I thought were crap. But that contrariness had its good points.

                                              Maybe he claimed to be doing some things for money but was actually doing them for art.

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                                                #48
                                                40 years ago today

                                                I'm with you most of the way.
                                                There was a lot of it around in those days.

                                                Bernie Rhodes was no stranger to a bit of chicanery too.
                                                It's what band management did.

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                                                  #49
                                                  40 years ago today

                                                  In his defence, his band did produce the single greatest album in the history of rocknroll.

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                                                    #50
                                                    40 years ago today

                                                    Who, the Pistols? Yes. Well one of them.

                                                    A couple of points on this. Were the 'Sex' clothes terribly expensive for the time? I know that the later Seditionaries stuff was hugely expensive and only very middle class moneyed acquaintances of mine could afford them. If the "Sex" stuff was bringing brilliantly designed art-inspired clothes to the punk youth for affordable prices that was genuinely revolutionary. If not, it was 'just' fashion. Nothing wrong with that, I used to save up to buy La Rocka stuff from Johnson's but it was fashion.

                                                    The other thing was that McLaren was a manager and, while he did do well with the Pistols or more particularly the spotting of Lydon (although didn't Rhodes spot him?), he would have been nothing without those particular characters. The New York Dolls went downhill after he got involved - although probably no-one could have saved them.

                                                    As I say, the Pistols needed him to put the already existing Cooke-Jones duo with Lydon and Matlock. The early stuff was brilliant and McLaren has to be seen as instrumental in this. After that, the Swindle stuff onwards was obviously just shit. If McLaren thought Eddie Tenpole could be a Lydon replacement, he had already lost the plot. I am not sure that the Pistols were ever going to be a band that had a long-term career - maybe that's the beauty of them - so we can't speculate on what they would have become.

                                                    I like BowWowWow and love Adam and the Ants but the latter went further post-McLaren and, again, there are suggestions that Rhodes introduced the Burundi Beat to them. The McLaren effect seemed to damage BowWowWow and Annabella Lwin somewhat.

                                                    OK, Duck Rock was a very early venture into Hip Hop but this was after "Rapture" by Blondie but, admittedly, before "White Lines" where I think a lot of us heard real Hip-Hop. He also pre-dated B.A.D. and SSS with his sampling as well. Also, he did the BA advert.

                                                    So he was a manager who did brilliantly in putting a load of musicians together in the Pistols. Fairly uniquely for a manager, he put managed to release some good original music. He also spotted a brilliant designer in Westwood. He was a mostly a very good spotter of talents and trends but, as mentioned, there was a fair few misses. In producing his 'own' music, he put himself ahead of Rhodes who is the only other person who could be seen as a non-musical driver of 'punk'. That he thought he was revolutionary. Nah, don't see it. He was an pre-Thatcherite entrepreneur, a spotter of talent, a shyster, no more a revolutionary than Colonel Parker, Brian Epstein or Andrew Loog Oldham.

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