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    So if he is "fucking useless", then how shit must everyone else be?

    Worse than Him. That was my point. The UK has a pretty spectacularly useless cohort of politicians right now. He's fucking useless, but I don't see anyone replacing him. It's why There are essentially no politicians in the UK that seem to grasp the enormity of what is happening to the UK. And I know that the 2017 election happened. Fair dues to them for grabbing a large number of former UKIP voters by promising to go through with Brexit, and instead talking about other things. The Tories talking about Europe shored up the Remain side of the Labour support, and they did better than anyone could have imagined. They still didn't win though. That tactic of just accepting the result of the Brexit vote might have been good short term tactics, but It has completely taken labour out of the equation when it comes to providing an adequate opposition on the Brexit issue.

    And this is the thing to focus on. Leaving the single market is going to fucking obliterate the UK economy and impoverish millions.

    1. That Napoleon quote is true and reduced Dominic Raab to writing a fucking letter to the Labour Party demanding to know their plan for Brexit so that he had something to fucking do instead of his job. And Labour told him to fuck right off. What would the Centrists have done? Op-ed in the Observer by midnight and the next fucking week defending themselves.

    Right, again a reasonable enough short term tactic, except here we are and there's only about a week left for the UK govt to swallow the backstop, or else there is no deal, and the gates of Economic hell open. This crunch has been coming since last December. In Ireland, we've known for over a year that if the UK didn't accept the backstop, and leave NI in the EU, this would end in disaster. This hasn't really been raised in the UK, and the Labour party haven't really helped with making this clear. In the absence of someone standing up in the parliament every week to say that the UK will be facing a no-deal brexit if Theresa May can't get her head around the Backstop, then call a general election, or hold a second referendum. The important part about the not interfering tactic, is that you have enough time. The Decision is being made this week, and it's not looking good.

    The thing is this, I'm not criticizing him from a blairite point of view. I focus not on people say, but on what they propose to do with money, and this labour Party are every bit as timid and disappointing as New Labour. Tackling inequality has to be first on the agenda, and the only effective means to do that is to take more in tax and redistribute it. Promising not to raise taxes on 95% of the population, while going along with Tory spending plans to increase benefit payments at below the level of inflation is fucking shameful. If there was no brexit, and Labour were to take over from the Tories, they've bound their hands in a very serious way. (I came across an article I wrote in a college magazine 20 years ago say that the Labour party lost their nerve after 1992 and Even though they would have won the 1997 election with a landslide with a manifesto that advocated the killing of every first born, they effectively replaced John Smith with a Tory in disguise and banged on at length about their adherence to these spending limits. So don't confuse my criticisms with those of a Blairite.)

    The thing is that the biggest obstacle facing any sort of meaningful left wing reform, or improvement in society is the idea that taxes just can't go up. But instead of staying quiet about their future plans, they've now promised not to raise taxes on the bottom 95% of the income spectrum. That's madness. The Tories aren't going to even stick to that. They should be making the argument for a radically restructured and expanded tax base, now and explain what they will spend that money on, so that people are used to the idea by the next election.

    Here's the thing, if they wanted to actually achieve anything if they gain power, or if they want to affect the brexit debate they have to be setting out their stall good and early, and make strong clear arguments for their agenda to increase the size of the Govt's share of the Economy towards something approximating the EU Average. This is not that.

    But none of it matters, other than to disappoint me with their timidity and rigid adherence to small government orthodoxy, in spite of all the nonsense we have to put with about marxism. Because the UK has basically a couple of days to swallow the NI backstop, or else we are heading for a fucking nightmare that is going to sweep away a large chunk of the UK economy, crater everything, and immiserate millions. The UK Economy has been in the single market for 26 years. It needs it to function. Whatever you might think about the EU, The UK leaving the Single market is in a similar category of suicidal lunacy to giving up electricity. Quite literally the only thing that should be concerning the leader of a left wing party in the UK is the millions and millions of people that are going to utterly impoverished by this. However bad things are for however many people now, they're going to be far worse, for far more.

    2. Labour isn't absent from the Brexit stage. It is completely and utterly being ignored. Labour has been saying something and you haven't been fucking listening. Six tests, designed to be failed. Been there for two years. We'll vote down a shit deal. Second referendum.

    There isn't time. There's literally a couple of days to conclude negotiations, in order to have something sufficiently detailed for prime minsters to vote on, and then bring back to their parliaments to ratify. Lets say that Theresa May even manages to bring back some form of agreement, after the meeting in mid december it would be the end of jamuary before you could have an election, And I know about the Six tests. It's just a reheating of Gordon Brown's bullshit tests for the Euro. But the second and third one together set my teeth on edge.

    2 Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

    3. Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?


    Test two is only possible within the Single Market and Customs union, but that requires freedom of movement. Is that what test three means? See it's essentially "cake", and Labour have Trafficked in Cake for far too long. They needed to be holding the Govt to account in the world of reality. The Red lines about freedom of Movement and the ECj have always meant that the UK was going to lose almost all of its access to the single market, thereby ending the export of Services to the EU. That's about 15% of the UK economy snuffed out overnight. This is a point that needed to be made repeatedly in parliament from the day after the referendum on.

    It has also been clear that the UK negotiating its own trade deals would mean a radical and impossible increase in customs barriers. This is a point that needed to be hammered home repeatedly. What were the Government's plans for dealing with this? But the really big one would have been to take the Backstop and use it as a wedge to pry the DUP and the Tories apart. Theresa May lied to Arlene Fosters face about that backstop. I would have mentioned that in parliament. I would have mentioned it every week at leader's question time. "So have you decided whether you're going to stab Arlene, or the Country in the Back?" That sort of thing. You know, Oppose. Make it known that the UK would have to agree to the backstop or there would be no deal. This seems to have snuck up on a lot of people in the UK.

    I appreciate that this isn't exactly constructive, or going to make anyone but then again There is virtually nothing constructive or positive that can be said about british politics at the moment. There is a fucking cataclysm coming, an order of magnitude greater than "Project Fear" during the referendum, and no-one in any british political party seems to be grasping this.

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      Testify. Labour are sleepwalking into disaster. If they win the next election after no deal, there will be no money to do anything. There will be fire in NI. The 6 tests designed to fail canard has no place any longer. But then the Labour front bench seem as ignorant of Europe as the Tories. Some soft meaningless noncommittal words of encouragement in private to Starmer from Barnier are taken as read the EU will somehow accommodate cake.

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        This is all fairly terrifying watching from over the water. Face down and ignore racist voters. Youse would win most of your core seats anyways even if ye backed FoM. John Curtice has been pointing this out since the Brexit result but instead the Flints and the Lexit wanks are forming an unholy coalition of stupidity.

        On a selfish level this will utterly destroy Scotland if FoM dies through no deal or shit deal. My sister will almost definitely be unemployed post Marchageddon as the retail sector implodes.

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          It’s now too late for an election or 2nd ref to resolve this, unless all 27 EU countries are tolerant enough to extend Article 50.

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            It's just a reheating of Gordon Brown's bullshit tests for the Euro.
            They weren't bullshit tests. They were the basis of a consultation of experts.

            https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/201...or-record.html

            And of course, as the government, Brown/Blair were in control of events, with as far as I know only internal deadlines. Plus if the tests were failed, we kept the pound. What happens now, if these tests are failed?

            Comment


              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
              It’s now too late for an election or 2nd ref to resolve this, unless all 27 EU countries are tolerant enough to extend Article 50.
              which they've repeatedly said they're prepared to do.

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                All 27? At some point patience will run out.

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                  I'd argue US intervention - essentially issuing economic threats
                  The US president wasn't allowed to say openly what their trade policy was? The Leave side were asserting that we'd do a quick and very beneficial trade deal with America. The US President is allowed to call bollocks on that.
                  Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 08-11-2018, 20:34.

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                    The response to both of those realities should be, "Of course they did - why wouldn't they?" Russia and the Western allies have been "interfering" in each others' politics for generations.

                    The "Soros money" comparison is a good one.
                    My response is that we investigate it properly, and try to stop it happening again.

                    It's not like "Soros money". The mainstream American right have said that Soros is paying for people to join the "caravan". Where's the equivalent?
                    Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 08-11-2018, 20:38.

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                      Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                      This is all fairly terrifying watching from over the water. Face down and ignore racist voters. Youse would win most of your core seats anyways even if ye backed FoM. John Curtice has been pointing this out since the Brexit result but instead the Flints and the Lexit wanks are forming an unholy coalition of stupidity.
                      Yep.

                      Would be a good long-term position to take, I think, even if Brexit isn't mitigated.

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                        The cash to Banks could just as easily be from the US as Russia. Liam Fox’s pals. It is important this kind of interference isn’t normalized even if you don’t believe it directly caused the result.

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                          Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                          Testify. Labour are sleepwalking into disaster. If they win the next election after no deal, there will be no money to do anything. There will be fire in NI. The 6 tests designed to fail canard has no place any longer. But then the Labour front bench seem as ignorant of Europe as the Tories. Some soft meaningless noncommittal words of encouragement in private to Starmer from Barnier are taken as read the EU will somehow accommodate cake.
                          Why are Labour sleepwalking into disaster. They aren't at the wheel, they've consistently voted against all this (unlike the Lib Dems) and they simply don't have the fucking votes in the Commons anyway. They could come out tomorrow and demand the immediate revocation of the A50 notification and full on Remain and it Still. Wouldn't. Fucking. Matter.

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                            They don't have the votes for anything in the Commons.

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                              I know. Which is why the continual calls for Labour to Do Something are so infuriating. The quickest way to Hard Brexit is to give the Tory Brexiteers something to fight against.

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                                Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                The cash to Banks could just as easily be from the US as Russia. Liam Fox’s pals. It is important this kind of interference isn’t normalized even if you don’t believe it directly caused the result.
                                Yep. And in terms of Brexit, got to be worth making more of it. Brexiters have basically given up saying we'll be better off. All they have is "will of the people". Undermine that. Better use of your time than talking about trains.

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                                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                  I know. Which is why the continual calls for Labour to Do Something are so infuriating. The quickest way to Hard Brexit is to give the Tory Brexiteers something to fight against.
                                  The Hard Brexiters do that anyway. Without a stronger voice from Labour, May looks moderate and sensible.

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                                    On the basis of the Channel 4 study the other night, how many constituencies are there now with a majority of Labour voters for Leave? Great Grimsby, maybe? Not that there's an election coming anyway.

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                                      If Burnley has gone Remain, I've got a bridge to sell you.

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                                        Burnley doesn’t have to go remain for Labour to win it. FTTP doesn’t require 50% votes to take a seat. As my man Curtice has been shouting into the wind since June 2016. Labour would prob still hold it if they went full Norway plus customs union.
                                        Last edited by Lang Spoon; 08-11-2018, 21:42.

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                                          Probably? Definitely. Blair had to take a massive dump on the place for a Lib Dem to be elected for the first time in 100 years.

                                          Which is why the focus on Labour is so misguided.

                                          It says everything when Vince Cable doesn't show up for a vote, where he and Tim Farron would have been the crucial votes which would have caused a Government defeat and he is still welcomed at the Peoples Vote March who are too busy focusing on Corbyn. He even used Corbyn as the excuse for not showing up!

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                                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                            They weren't bullshit tests. They were the basis of a consultation of experts.

                                            https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/201...or-record.html

                                            And of course, as the government, Brown/Blair were in control of events, with as far as I know only internal deadlines. Plus if the tests were failed, we kept the pound. What happens now, if these tests are failed?
                                            The Euro wasn't just an economic project though. It's mostly a political one as well. one that would go through a number of distinct phases, and it was arguable that no-one should have joined it in the beginning, but that was a legacy of how it was created. It was only going to be given the power to create it that the member states would agree to, and that was always going to be inadequate. It would take the 2008 financial crisis for people to start to sort out its various problems.

                                            If the Uk had joined the Euro, there would never have been a brexit vote. The risks inherent in re-establishing the Pound would have properly put the shits up old people, in a way that Project fear couldn't.

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                                              Estimated leave for Burnley now is 54%. Labour vote in Burnley in 2017, 46.7%. Tories and Kippers 37.1% combined. I reckon that's a majority of Labour voters in Burnley for Remain.

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                                                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                                The Euro wasn't just an economic project though. It's mostly a political one as well. one that would go through a number of distinct phases, and it was arguable that no-one should have joined it in the beginning, but that was a legacy of how it was created. It was only going to be given the power to create it that the member states would agree to, and that was always going to be inadequate. It would take the 2008 financial crisis for people to start to sort out its various problems.

                                                If the Uk had joined the Euro, there would never have been a brexit vote. The risks inherent in re-establishing the Pound would have properly put the shits up old people, in a way that Project fear couldn't.
                                                That's true. Then again, I don't think anybody foresaw David sodding Cameron.

                                                I don't think there were all that many takers in Britain for the Euro as a political project, though of course it was that. We could have joined it later anyway.

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                                                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                                  Probably? Definitely. Blair had to take a massive dump on the place for a Lib Dem to be elected for the first time in 100 years.

                                                  Which is why the focus on Labour is so misguided.

                                                  It says everything when Vince Cable doesn't show up for a vote, where he and Tim Farron would have been the crucial votes which would have caused a Government defeat and he is still welcomed at the Peoples Vote March who are too busy focusing on Corbyn. He even used Corbyn as the excuse for not showing up!
                                                  The government won by 3 votes. Cable and Farron made no difference.

                                                  Cable and Farron have voted for the Single Market and against Article 50. Corbyn whipped MPs not to vote for the Single Market and for Article 50 (with no conditions). And more generally leads a strongly pro-EU/EEA party but is working against the members views.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                                                    And more generally leads a strongly pro-EU/EEA party but is working against the members views.
                                                    Corbyn is pro-EU too.

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