Corb Blimey!

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Unless I am missing something massive, he did not defend the mural.

The artist posted on Facebook that the mural was being removed. Corbyn asked the artist him why.

Is there more than Corbyn's "Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller destroyed Diego Viera’s mural because it includes a picture of Lenin." comment?

He also implied in a statement that he objected to its removal on free-speech grounds (being unaware of the antisemitic content of the photo he was commenting on, of course).

[E10 Rifle]

I tend to agree with this David Schneider thread.

Corbyn needs to put his hands up, fully, on this, and there shouldn't be any attempt to minimise and play it down by his supporters. We can only make the trumped-up and bogus antisemitism accusations go away if we front up to and deal with the genuine ones.

A leadership challenge would be as stupid as the last one, though. Re the Owen Smith thing, technically it's fair enough to sack a cabinet minister if they step outside the collective-responsibility thing and kite-fly alternative policies, but I wonder whether it's worth the hassle, with local elections six weeks away.

[Pérou Flaquettes]

Is there more than Corbyn's "Why? You are in good company. Rockerfeller destroyed Diego Viera’s mural because it includes a picture of Lenin." comment?

Diego Rivera. I watched Frida over the Christmas holiday and heartily recommend it, great film (with Salma Hayek as Frida Kahlo and Alfred Molina as Diego Rivera).

Nelson Rockefeller of course knew what he was getting with Rivera (chosen because Picasso had declined and Rockefeller’s mother loved Rivera apparently) but considered that Rivera had gone too far with Lenin (who wasn't supposed to be part of the mural as per the details of the contract signed by both parties), especially as this amazing fresco was attracting bad publicity because of its sturdy anti-capitalist overtones (newspapers were complaining, outraged people were firing letters to officials and the press etc.).

There was also this:

On top of that, according to David Rockefeller Sr., Rivera added a panel that the family felt was an unflattering portrait of his father.
"The picture of Lenin was on the right-hand side, and on the left, a picture of [my] father drinking martinis with a harlot and various other things that were unflattering to the family and clearly inappropriate to have as the center of Rockefeller Center," he said.

I remember going to the Rockefeller Center in August 1984 and being amazed at seeing display stands in the lobby where you could help yourself to maps of all the US states and the main cities I think too, maps which were retailing at ~50 francs each (£5) at the now-defunct legendary L’Astrolabe travel bookshop in Paris that specialised in maps, the then world’s largest stockist of maps along with Stanfords in London. I was a little narked as I’d bought about 8 such maps in Paris…

[ad hoc]

I tend to agree with this David Schneider thread.

Corbyn needs to put his hands up, fully, on this, and there shouldn't be any attempt to minimise and play it down by his supporters. We can only make the trumped-up and bogus antisemitism accusations go away if we front up to and deal with the genuine ones.

This

[Lurgee]

Diego Rivera. I watched Frida over the Christmas holiday and heartily recommend it, great film (with Salma Hayek as Frida Kahlo and Alfred Molina as Diego Rivera).

The errors were in the original comment by Corbyn. I merely copied and pasted them.

I assume Corbyn himself fell victim to some sort auto-correct wickedness, or isn't really into art at all.

[MsD]

Corbyn's made a couple of very clear statements today which I hope satisfy all but the most determinedly anti-Corbynists.

[Lucy Waterman]

Jewish Leadership Council and British Board of Deputies protesting outside Parliament tomorrow evening.

[MsD]

Jewish Voice UK

"This statement by Corbyn!

We are used to party leaders who only point out the problems in other parties while ignoring the problems in their own party. But Corbyn is different & willing to look within Labour and admit change is needed.

This is why we say more than ever #JC4PM"

[Pérou Flaquettes]

The errors were in the original comment by Corbyn. I merely copied and pasted them.

I assume Corbyn himself fell victim to some sort auto-correct wickedness, or isn't really into art at all.

OK, fair enough but I was just pointing out the glaring error, somebody has to I suppose, and I hate my Mexican artists being mucked about with!

I haven’t followed this Corbyn allegedly anti-Semitic mural controversy saga TBH, I’ve now officially pretty much switched off as far as Brexit & British politics and all this Bunkum is concerned, I’m almost out of the door so to speak, we'll be viewing properties in Spain next month! (for post-2020 period, in-laws’ care still an issue so it might have to wait a few years but that's fine, there's no rush, MIL is desperate for us to stay and has even offered to pay the £2,000 or thereabouts it costs to get UK citizenship for me - not cheap to become British now, it was free only 15 years ago, no wonder the Economist calls it Paytriotism... but it's not that of course).

[Tubby Isaacs]

Much better statement, but it took 2 days and 3 attempts.

Taxi for Milne.

[Lang Spoon]

It could be worse. Mason could replace him.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

There's a lot about the framing of Corbynism that lends itself to antisemitic conspiracy theorising - or, more accurately, a kind of anti-capitalism that is hospitable to the germination of antisemitic conspiracy theories.

"For the many, not the few" is a slogan that could be interpreted a number of different ways depending on who you interpret "the many" and "the few" to be. Theoretically, a low-tax, benefit-slashing, anti-immigrant Tory Party could legitimately lay claim to being "for the many not the few" (benefits claimants making up 7% of the population and migrants 8%).

Of course, Corbyn's slogan doesn't mean that. "The many" are constructed as "ordinary people" and the few as bankers, speculators, news barons and landlords whose greed is inhibiting the proper working of capitalism. You can see where that ends up.

There's been a tendency for Corbyn to emphasise this (flawed) approach to capitalism - when he bangs on about the Posted Workers Directive, he's framing immigration as a conspiracy forced on us by bosses; when he (or Momentum, rather) talk about foreign ownership of utilities, they construct a dastardly elite betraying our nation by selling off the trains to foreigners; when he bangs on about oligarchs owning houses or austerity weakening our national security - at every point there's this nationalistic core. It's a political analysis (or positioning, rather) that sits extremely comfortably with those who would look favourably upon Strasserism.

[ad hoc]

http://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org....jeremy-corbyn/

[Mumpo]

"For the many, not the few" is a slogan that could be interpreted a number of different ways depending on who you interpret "the many" and "the few" to be. Theoretically, a low-tax, benefit-slashing, anti-immigrant Tory Party could legitimately lay claim to being "for the many not the few" (benefits claimants making up 7% of the population and migrants 8%).

Of course, Corbyn's slogan doesn't mean that. "The many" are constructed as "ordinary people" and the few as bankers, speculators, news barons and landlords whose greed is inhibiting the proper working of capitalism. You can see where that ends up

Also 'few' sounds like 'Jew'

[anton pulisov]

Wait, I thought Corbyn was a Soviet spy?

[johnr]

Well, he could be both, I guess. It could mean that he's good at being an undercover anti-semite, as here at the anniversary of the battle of Cable Street.

Jewish Voice have been doing their best with tweets like this, but they're up against the likes of Labour Friends Of Israel's Wes Streeting and friends, and their hotline to every journalist's mobile phone, so it's pissing in the wind, really.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Well, he could be both, I guess. It could mean that he's good at being an undercover anti-semite, as here at the anniversary of the battle of Cable Street.

Jewish Voice have been doing their best with tweets like this, but they're up against the likes of Labour Friends Of Israel's Wes Streeting and friends, and their hotline to every journalist's mobile phone, so it's pissing in the wind, really.

I mean, there's a strong degree of opportunism in some of the people making the allegations but when the response is "Corbyn can't be antisemitic, he supported the anniversary of the battle of Cable Street", it doesn't really cut it.

Does Corbyn hate Jewish people? Probably not. Has he repeatedly given off the impression that he doesn't view antisemitism particularly seriously? Absolutely. There's a load of cranks within the left of the labour party who've found it fairly easy to slot into corbynism (i would include the anti-migrant left, and the transphobic left among this - the three intersect but are distinct).

[MsD]

The injustice of this slur burns - it's not just against Corbyn, but everyone in Labour who tends to support him.

There really is no winning, it's either "so you're in denial about anti-Semitism?" or "ah, so you ADMIT you've been anti-Semitic!". Truthfully stating "I have never been anti-Semitic, nor witnessed anti-Semitism in the Party, although I acknowledge that some people may have interpreted certain criticisms as being anti-Semitic" immediately marks you out as a denier/apologist. Labour Party members on the whole are apt to examine their own consciences and police themselves and each other for any sort of discrimination. Defence of the Palestinians is generally couched in terms that make it crystal-clear we're not blaming all Israelis, let alone Jewish people living elsewhere, but we're being forced to think twice before even saying a word about the subject. Then, complaining about not being able to speak freely makes people suspect that you’re just dying to say something anti-Semitic.

It's not just hurtful and frustrating, it's damaging to democracy.

[johnr]

I mean, there's a strong degree of opportunism in some of the people making the allegations but when the response is "Corbyn can't be antisemitic, he supported the anniversary of the battle of Cable Street", it doesn't really cut it.

Does Corbyn hate Jewish people? Probably not. Has he repeatedly given off the impression that he doesn't view antisemitism particularly seriously? Absolutely. There's a load of cranks within the left of the labour party who've found it fairly easy to slot into corbynism (i would include the anti-migrant left, and the transphobic left among this - the three intersect but are distinct).

I agree with the gist of some of this, and your earlier post, BLT (as well as with MsD's). But the 'probably not' riles me a bit. He's voted against anti-semitism more than just about any other Labour MP; he's been on all the rallies (fwiw, probably more than most of his critics/doubters on this one); he's specifically supported synagogues in his constituency, and defended them against attacks. He commissioned the Chakrabarti report. The party itself is now quicker to suspend anti-semites than at any other point in its history. Yet, the 'probably not' case is built on Corbyn (and I'll mention it again; a renowned anti-racist all his life), specifically, hating (for some unspecified reason), a group of people originating from this specific ethnic group, from a particular part of the world. It's nuts.

There's a whole bunch of danger in 'probably not'.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

I agree with the gist of some of this, and your earlier post, BLT (as well as with MsD's). But the 'probably not' riles me a bit. He's voted against anti-semitism more than just about any other Labour MP; he's been on all the rallies (fwiw, probably more than most of his critics/doubters on this one); he's specifically supported synagogues in his constituency, and defended them against attacks. He commissioned the Chakrabarti report. The party itself is now quicker to suspend anti-semites than at any other point in its history. Yet, the 'probably not' case is built on Corbyn (and I'll mention it again; a renowned anti-racist all his life), specifically, hating (for some unspecified reason), a group of people originating from this specific ethnic group, from a particular part of the world. It's nuts.

There's a whole bunch of danger in 'probably not'.

He's also been long-term political allies with people who now open hold antisemitic views (e.g. George Galloway). He's (presumably) been to meetings with these people, sat in pubs with them. He's seen the stuff they share on facebook. Corbyn has a decent track record of opposing far-right racism. He's much more flaky when it comes to challenging his own allies or distancing himself from them. The same goes for misogynists on the left (e.g. George Galloway). Corbyn's been shit on this throughout his career and to just deflect this with reference to his anti-racism work.

Anyway, "is Corbyn antisemitic" is a pretty useless and unhelpful question. Neither of us can answer for sure. A better question might be "how is antisemitism reproduced under corbynism and in what ways does the leadership contribute to this".

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I don't for one minute believe that corbyn is anti-semitic. There is however a substantial body of evidence to suggest that he is an incurious woolly headed fool. He and his leadership seem to be a bit like sideshow bob and the rakes on this topic, because I don't think they fully understand the issues involved. It's perfectly possible to get to where the labour party are now by knowing that you yourself don't have a racist bone in your body, and thinking that everything you say and do is grand as a result, and assuming that everyone around you is the same.

The problem with this sort of thing is that when you wind up saying or doing something that other people find offensive, you become defensive if its mentioned, and wind up making the situation worse. One of the really annoying things for an Irish person living in England, is that you can go out of an evening and meet a whole bunch of lovely people who don't have a racist intent in the world, but there's a really high probability that someone somewhere along the line is going to do their Irish accent for you. It doesn't matter if you're in a small rural near birmingham, or at a party with a lot of pepole who went to Oxford. (One of the most CYE accounts I've heard of this phenomenon involves a Senior cambridge medical academic)

Now when this happens, the most important thing to remember at all times is that you're probably dealing with someone who is very nervous and run out of things to say, or at worst they are a fucking clueless idiot, channelling the ghost of DLT and the Minstrels in the spirit of banter. You may be offended or annoyed, but not has as offended or annoyed as this person is going to be if you say something about it, and if you say something about it, well that's the end of the evening for everyone, and things will be tricky if you meet that person again. If they did it out of nervousness then they'll be mortified to look you in the eye, if they did it out of banterific intent, they're probably now a member of ukip, having been scarred by an incident of PC gone mad like you wouldn't believe. Now this example is very much at the lower end of the scale of seriousness and offence, but it's a good example of how no ill intent, can conspire with a lack of awareness to quickly produce a Larry David style situation. (cluelessness and lack of awareness Not a trait in any way limited to people in the UK Btw)

But ultimately it comes down to well meaning cluelessness (because it's easy to spot when it isn't) I can easily believe that corbyn just looked at that mural and just didn't see what was wrong with it because he wasn't paying attention. And there's a good chance that he's missing out on a lot of other stuff because he assumes good intent on the part of people on his side, and there's no place for that sort of assumption in the mind of any leader of a large political party.

[anton pulisov]

Or he has a secret basement collection of Nazi memorabilia.

[MsD]

<Fucking might as well have.>

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Or he has a secret basement collection of Nazi memorabilia.

no matter where we go we just can't get away from father ted.

[MsD]

Do you want to hear my Ted impression?