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    Ah, see what you mean. I agree.

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      Won't put up the link (it's the Mail) but I think Corbyn will survive.

      Stasi's 'secret file on Corbyn': Fears Labour leader could be vulnerable to Russian blackmail after he travelled through communist Germany in the 1970s with his then-lover
      Not even Lynton Crosby is sitting there thinking "We should have used that in the General Election".

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        He's more chance of getting that made public than MI5s file on him.

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          Just heard that a Left councillor in our borough has been deselected, that Evil Tactic that apparently Moderates abhor and lefties threaten everyone with.

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            I see Corbyn still telling allies the UK won't defend them if he Putin attacks.

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politic...-nato-11237998

            He said: “The NATO charter asks for acts of solidarity and support.

            “It is not necessarily military; it can be diplomatic, it can be economic, it can be a lot of things.

            “What I want is a dialogue between NATO and Russia.”
            That is pathetic sophistry.

            By all means call for talks now- though not sure they'll get anywhere. But say you'll defend allies if needed.

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              What sort of attack on an ally is being envisaged here? In the actual real world? Rather than doing this Gareth Keenan-esque "would you kill a tiger armed only with a biro?" stuff

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                Next “Oh Boris, dontcha love him!” soft soap interview in the Telegraph will probably begin with just that kind of madcap bantz. Maybe Dellingpole will do it.

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                  Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                  What sort of attack on an ally is being envisaged here? In the actual real world? Rather than doing this Gareth Keenan-esque "would you kill a tiger armed only with a biro?" stuff
                  It'll be news to Ukraine that it's not part of the actual real world.

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                    In the real world, I guess, saying that we'll enter into a war is the best way forward (even if one doesn't mean it).

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                      It'll be news to Ukraine that it's not part of the actual real world.
                      It'll also be news to Ukraine that the current UK government has ever sent its own troops into their country to fight the Russian occupier

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                        It doesn't say you've got to enter into a war. It says you'll do what you deem necessary, including force.

                        The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

                        Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.
                        If you unilaterally say, or strongly imply by successively not answering questions, that you'll never use force, that's not going to go down very well.

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                          In reality, the current government is never going to use force against Putin's Russia in Ukraine. And I'm not sure it would be very popular if they did.

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                            Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                            It'll also be news to Ukraine that the current UK government has ever sent its own troops into their country to fight the Russian occupier
                            It'll be news to Ukraine that it's in NATO.

                            And anyway, the treaty doesn't force any member to go military. But members would generally expect other members not to rule it out. For obvious reasons.

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                              So, war then. (edit, to Tubby a few posts before)

                              It might not 'go down too well' (with some, but not others), doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't be said. I get the 'realpolitik' point you're making, but I don't mind him being vague on this; a big discussion is maybe in order about NATO's expansion,and how it has impacted/is perceived to have impacted on east-west relations. A bit of nuance might be the start of it.

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                                I’m no fan of the Latvian or Lithuanian governing anti communist half the time Ex communist crooks, but I can really see their point about wanting to join NATO, however difficult that makes things for the West.

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                                  Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                  In reality, the current government is never going to use force against Putin's Russia in Ukraine. And I'm not sure it would be very popular if they did.
                                  No, and quite right that they're not. Nor would military force necessarily be the right thing to do if a NATO ally was invaded. But the allies sure aren't expecting force to be ruled out.

                                  If he wants to lead a case for better engagement with Putin, that's fine. I'll trust him more than Hilarious Boris and those that are worried about losing expat oligarch money.

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                                    I didn't introduce Ukraine into this discussion. You did. The point is, monstrous and scum though Putin is, I don't think he poses an existential military threat to the UK or its treaty allies. But he knows how to do the realpolitik posturing and aggrandising. And the response it gets

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                                      Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                      So, war then. (edit, to Tubby a few posts before)

                                      It might not 'go down too well' (with some, but not others), doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't be said. I get the 'realpolitik' point you're making, but I don't mind him being vague on this; a big discussion is maybe in order about NATO's expansion,and how it has impacted/is perceived to have impacted on east-west relations. A bit of nuance might be the start of it.
                                      It doesn't follow that it's war. If, say, a small part of a Baltic country got occupied, there'd likely be a deadline for the aggressor to get out- not a million miles from what Corbyn's saying.

                                      The problem I have is ruling out force, when the treaty strongly suggests that you shouldn't do that.

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                                        Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                        I didn't introduce Ukraine into this discussion. You did. The point is, monstrous and scum though Putin is, I don't think he poses an existential military threat to the UK or its treaty allies. But he knows how to do the realpolitik posturing and aggrandising. And the response it gets
                                        I introduced Ukraine because you seemed to suggest military aggression in Eastern Europe was Gareth TA fantasy.

                                        Putin was born 3 years after the NATO treaty was signed, so whatever else it is, it isn't a response to him. Trying to change what it's been understood to say could be seen as a response, but I'm not sure it's a very good one.

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                                          Fair enough. Maybe the treaty could change, down the line somewhat.

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                                            Don't appear on Russia Today with George Galloway, you lightweight buffoon.

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                                              Another overpromoted Campaign Group Lexit pal. David Drew. He's a shadow agriculture minister. How did that work? Got that particular brief by being MP for Stroud, no doubt.

                                              One of the things I am pushing for within the Labour Party is to make Britain 80% self-sufficient. Why should we worry about exports, why don’t we just concentrate on becoming more food secure and doing some interesting things with our food?
                                              Because exports earn us money?
                                              Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 10-10-2017, 18:12.

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                                                Crazy, hard-left loons belatedly discover the bleedin' obvious

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                                                  You know your country's politics are broken when the IMF are to the left of your domestic political/media discourse.

                                                  The IMF's previous theme six months ago was investigating the effects of globalisation on employment and inequality - they advocated:

                                                  • active labour market policies such as employment protection and minimum wage legislation,
                                                  • comprehensive social insurance and income support to protect workers and their families when industries suffer in their country as a result of international trade
                                                  • better provision of housing and credit to enable people to move around the country more easily
                                                  • active regional policies to revive hard-hit areas
                                                  • counter cyclical macro intervention
                                                  • higher investment in education and skills, especially lifelong learning

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                                                    I've become aware of this from the conference. This went out live on the BBC's main politics programme.

                                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anRhI2xezgA

                                                    Ken Loach starts off by being very dismissive of charges of anti-Semitism in Labour. Then defends questioning the Holocaust, and launches seamlessly into talking about Israel.

                                                    Last week he lied about the interview in a letter to the NY Times. And to make it even better, he ties it in with Corbyn and says "here are some Jews who agree with me".

                                                    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/1...-semitism.html

                                                    How is this acceptable? Because the guy makes films?
                                                    Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 18-10-2017, 13:34.

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