Originally posted by Reginald Christ
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Corb Blimey!
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Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View PostThe government won by 3 votes. Cable and Farron made no difference.
Cable and Farron have voted for the Single Market and against Article 50. Corbyn whipped MPs not to vote for the Single Market and for Article 50 (with no conditions). And more generally leads a strongly pro-EU/EEA party but is working against the members views.
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Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View PostThat's true. Then again, I don't think anybody foresaw David sodding Cameron.
I don't think there were all that many takers in Britain for the Euro as a political project, though of course it was that. We could have joined it later anyway.
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Originally posted by Snake Plissken View PostWhy are Labour sleepwalking into disaster. They aren't at the wheel, they've consistently voted against all this (unlike the Lib Dems) and they simply don't have the fucking votes in the Commons anyway. They could come out tomorrow and demand the immediate revocation of the A50 notification and full on Remain and it Still. Wouldn't. Fucking. Matter.
It's a matter of perspective I think. If you're watching this from Ireland, Even Keir Starmer sounds like a clueless idiot. (Former OTFer The Supergrass used to work for him, while training for the Bar, and considers him to be an extraordinary mind and a thoroughly decent man, and a good word from the supergrass is a hard currency indeed) And that's kind of the Problem. It's difficult to know who to be angriest with the most. The Remain MP's reinforce the impression they gave in the referendum, of not understanding the importance of Remaining enough to be able to convince people to remain. The Ones who parrot the party line look like cynical triangulators who are going to be hoist on their own petard, and then there are the brexit enthusiasts, and either their branes have melted, or they're obvious villains.
It's the Remain MP's that I'm angriest with. They're supposed to be the ones asking the questions like "The British Economy is uniquely dependent on Services exports to the EU. What happens when your red lines leave us with a Homeopathic level of access to the European single market in services?" or "If we leave the customs union, how are you going to check the 7000 trucks a day that use the port of Dover?" or "If there is a no deal Brexit, what the fuck are we going to eat, where are we going to get it from, and how are we going to pay for it?"
They're supposed to be the ones who understand this and they're supposed to be the ones motivated to raise these uncomfortable questions. There's so much that they could be doing, and making people aware of, and yet they do nothing.Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 09-11-2018, 00:18.
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Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
It's the Remain MP's that I'm angriest with. They're supposed to be the ones asking the questions like "The British Economy is uniquely dependent on Services exports to the EU. What happens when your red lines leave us with a Homeopathic level of access to the European single market in services?" or "If we leave the customs union, how are you going to check the 7000 trucks a day that use the port of Dover?" or "If there is a no deal Brexit, what the fuck are we going to eat, where are we going to get it from, and how are we going to pay for it?"
They're supposed to be the ones who understand this and they're supposed to be the ones motivated to raise these uncomfortable questions. There's so much that they could be doing, and making people aware of, and yet they do nothing.
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Brown was terrified that the UK's massive mortgage debt meant it was always a risk to give away interest rate policy to an organisation that had no brief to foster the UK's economic development, given that the Tories had fucked a 20-year reputation for economic credibility in one afternoon in 1992 when half the country's mortgages became unpayable for a few hours. The entire gambit of Brown's political economy was built on rising house prices to make people feel richer than the poor productivity returns through wages justified, and the credit boom that would cover the gap between actual income and desired spending.
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- Jan 2012
- 3297
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View PostAbout a year was spent asking precisely these questions, and was met with the repetitive drone of "business will find a way", "europe needs the UK more than we need them", "they (the ferry companies and border agencies) will develop fast track technological solutions" and other such "a magic unicorn will come along" type stuff. Then when the questions continued to be pressed the phrase Project Fear appeared to suggest anyone asking them was in some way a paranoid lunatic on a par with "End is Nigh" bloke who walks up and down the high street in a sandwich board.
* I see the shifts, but worry that they're not enough. Apparently, Farage said something like 'Leave haven't campaigned for two years', which is probably correct - there has been nothing put in place since 2016 to a) stop the Leave lot from lying/cheating all over again, and b) ameliorate the terrible effects of our economic policies on the areas that voted Brexit. (A Labour government would at least have made a start on the latter, but part of the reason they didn't win was that there were some people worried that Corbyn wasn't pro-EU enough, or something, so we never got over the line...)
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Originally posted by Reginald ChristDid Murdoch gain US citizenship?
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Originally posted by Reginald ChristSo why wouldn't the Russians want to give the EU a bloody nose? Again, I'm not excusing them interfering, I'm saying it's the way global geopolitics works. It's not Benevolent EU Undermined By Malicious Russia.
The other thing is that former Eastern bloc states joined the EU as enthusiastically as they joined NATO, because it would fundamentally limit the level of Russian interference. In Greece, they got caught paying fascists to protest over Macedonia's name change, and a bunch of russian "diplomats" got thrown out on their ear, by one of the most Putin friendly European govts. They tried to overthrow the govt of Montenegro.
When trying to analyse what is going on it's important to remember that Russia is basically a massive Fascist gangster state, seeking to compensate for its decline as a superpower, by trying to break up their neighbours into a more manageable size. People who try to say that everything would have been fine without Russian interference are idiots, the underlying problems still remain, but it's important to remember that it is a key factor in making a bad situation worse. Lets see what happens when the root around in the finances of Leave.eu.
I'd agree, which is why I find the obsessive focus on Russia's misdeeds disturbing. (Did Murdoch gain US citizenship?)
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Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View PostAbout a year was spent asking precisely these questions, and was met with the repetitive drone of "business will find a way", "europe needs the UK more than we need them", "they (the ferry companies and border agencies) will develop fast track technological solutions" and other such "a magic unicorn will come along" type stuff. Then when the questions continued to be pressed the phrase Project Fear appeared to suggest anyone asking them was in some way a paranoid lunatic on a par with "End is Nigh" bloke who walks up and down the high street in a sandwich board.
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Brown was terrified that the UK's massive mortgage debt meant it was always a risk to give away interest rate policy to an organisation that had no brief to foster the UK's economic development, given that the Tories had fucked a 20-year reputation for economic credibility in one afternoon in 1992 when half the country's mortgages became unpayable for a few hours. The entire gambit of Brown's political economy was built on rising house prices to make people feel richer than the poor productivity returns through wages justified, and the credit boom that would cover the gap between actual income and desired spending.
See, when you put it like that, you have to wonder what was the point of New Labour? The worry about the European Central Bank having no brief to foster UK economic development seems a bit misplaced, when the UK govt had no plans to do that either. The reason you would join the Euro is to move away from this sort of economy, and the idea that central banks can foster economic development like this is rather quaint in the modern world.
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Yes, but Brown worried that if he needed to, they could impress upon the Bank of England the need to act in defence of votes mortgage affordability the wider interests of the Uk economy in a way that wouldn't have been possible in the ECB.
But yes, it does rather call into question the point of New Labour. It's almost like it was a sticking plaster with no genuinely transformative ambitions, or something.
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Oh not really. Always about pragmatism rather than ideology for me. A sticking plaster with no transformative ambitions sounds pretty good compared to where we are now.
In all honesty, I’ve never thought my personal beliefs had much to do with the way British governments are elected. Just wanted one with the greatest capacity for progressive change. If Corbyn gets to a second term, I’d feel rather foolish. But if you’d prefer to think of me as some Blairite straw man, fair enough, I know that’s how political discourse is these days.Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 09-11-2018, 18:48.
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The Foreign Office has been paying for anti-Corbyn propaganda
https://twitter.com/calcorkery/status/1071688942754369536?s=21
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Strong statements by Thornberry and McDonnell
-can the BBC ignore this?
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellmp/status/1071793451438620673?s=21
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https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1071863036632317952
state secretly funds "charity" to intervene in British politics.
They attacked the leader of the opposition but they also called out am obscure Tory peer so that's Ok...Last edited by Nefertiti2; 10-12-2018, 04:12.
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