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    I am kind of wishing I hadn't voted for my Shadow Cabinet member MP who seems to support this stuff. But it's in Corbyn's hands.

    I wonder if he's going to have to promise some kind of special Brexit conference.

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      Originally posted by johnr View Post
      Not unmentionable at all, because somebody mentioned it; the general consensus though - although I left before the end - was that there is very much a working class (I mean, I'm one for a start), and that that class includes everybody from Uber drivers to postal workers to waiters - those who sell their labour whilst others profit enormously.
      Meh, the Trots banging on about how they went to printing college and studying history seemed to want everybody to be in the working class (hello bourgeoisie), and there was a lot of navel-gazing about how "we need to talk to working class people and raise their conciousness" in this unbelievably self-neutering way.

      I enjoyed every other session of TWT I went to, and the panel was actually pretty good, but that session was bad. It made me worry a bit, y'all motherfuckers don't know how to talk about class, and that it's probably better to DO something rather than talk about HOW to do something and learn on the fly.

      I was the one on the left hand side frantically waving his water bottle in the air, as I was really mad at something a panelist and a few other people said about Grenfell. I didn't get called on, so left in a huff.

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        I was on the left side too, small world; my point above was that there definitely is a working class, and that people recognised it. Absolutely we should do something - keep putting the policies across to anybody/everybody we meet. I'm not into raising people's consciousness.

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          The queues were too long for Clive Lewis and a few others to enable me to get into the 'progressive alliance' stuff - I was ready for that to get on my nerves - but I did manage to get to McDonnell, Pettifor, Mason, McClusky and a woman from Syriza talk about how the first six months of any Labour government would get all kinds of shit thrown at it - for example, from malicious to not-so-malicious runs on the pound - and how to cope with it. Too much to summarise here, but I did like Pettifor's 'Be Confident. Use your base' - particularly now that that base, as evidenced here, is from all classes, all ages, and from right across the country, with lots of grassroots activists and organisations. It's pretty exciting.

          Whilst in the queue, it was amusing to see the SWP fella not being able to sell any copies of his rag. It must be galling for him/them, to spend years fight for 'socialism', and then seeing hundreds of 'socialists' in a queue, with no one bothering to give them a second glance. I was tempted to ask him about it, but didn't want to intrude on private grief.

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            Labour would reverse £500m of Sure Start cuts, says Angela Rayner
            Excellent.

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              I liked the joke about boris and the paternity test.

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                I was down in Brighton on Sunday cos my other half was speaking at one of Sunday night's TWT meetings. I was just there to arse about on the pier with the kids. But the general atmosphere about the place was quite unlike, and so much more vibrant than, any other Labour conference I've been in or around. And this stuff does matter. And to echo johnr, it really has got fuck all to do with increasingly marginalised, derided and irrelevant Trot paper sellers.

                As for the Brexit thing, I would like there to have been a debate on it (particularly an assertion of support for FOM), but I would like there to have been a debate on loads of things, but which weren't possible because we're still dealing with the hidebound, debate-phobic, member-averse conference architecture bequeathed by New Labour, in which CLPs can only send in one motion and only a small number of, specifically "contemporary", motions can be put forward. Nor did it help that motions on this such as the one presented at our CLP insisted on inserting leadership-bashing sentiments that had been overriden by events (Starmer's softened position on the transition period, for example), which got a lot of people's heckles up, which meant a motion on housing post-Grenfell and the benefit cap won the poll.

                Reform conference properly, which we've got a better chance of doing now the left has control of the conference arrangements committee for next year, and we've a better chance of getting where we want to be on this.

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                  It doesn't look so good from here. The leader talking about positives of Brexit again. Over the cliff we go, at this rate.
                  Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 26-09-2017, 18:14.

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                    It’s fuckin terrifying. Not just the Labour Frontbench, I think there’s hardly anyone in the mainstream all UK parties (including Vince Cable) who really understands the EU and how our hand is so pitifully weak.
                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 26-09-2017, 19:18.

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                      You and me might need to get in a tank and drive down Whitehall at this rate.

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                        Fuck that Tubbs I’ll be seeing off your side at Gretna.

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                          I'll make A Vow to you.

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                            Don’t send Brooding Auld Broon to parley, please.

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                              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                              It’s fuckin terrifying. Not just the Labour Frontbench, I think there’s hardly anyone in the mainstream all UK parties (including Vince Cable) who really understands the EU and how our hand is so pitifully weak.
                              What would be the point of saying 'our hand is pitifully weak'? I get that it is. But unless it's 'we have to cancel Brexit' - which we can't do, since A50 - what's the point of saying so? The only thing that Labour could do - whilst out of power - is keep saying they'll kick it down the road until we can minimise the impact (transition, etc). Once we go out, stand on a proposal to rejoin, no referendum.

                              I'm up for better ideas of how to deal with the thing, politically, realistically. But there's got to be better than saying 'we know Brexit's shit'.

                              Comment


                                Sooner or later the shit will be rammed down the throats of Britain. Why not a Single Market Customs union joining Swiss/Norwegian hybrid. Again, most of your voters were remain. Enough with the likes of Flint on the right and McDonnell on the left decrying Freedom of Movement. And of course Starmer talking shite in the middle. This is the one issue where Labour is ceding all the ground to the Right. Madness. Incredibly destructive madness.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                  Sooner or later the shit will be rammed down the throats of Britain. Why not a Single Market Customs union joining Swiss/Norwegian hybrid.
                                  When Labour get in, I'm pretty sure we'll end up with something along those lines.

                                  EDIT: sorry, didn't mean 'we'll end up with', meant 'we'll end up negotiating for'. We won't get it, probably, cos as you say we are very weak.
                                  Last edited by johnr; 26-09-2017, 20:22.

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                                    Carwyn Jones is FM of a statelet with far too many Brexit wanks. His approach to Brexit is a model for Corbyn that will of course be ignored. I’m not a fan of Jones but he is at least showing moxy on this.

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                                      It will soon be too late for Labour to change their tune. I really worry this is what Corbyn wants. He is that against the Single Market he will fuck us forever, and mostly cos he doesn’t understand how State Aid is well fucking possible if you have cop on amd creative phrasing. Just ask your only neighbour with a land border.

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                                        What's Jones's position? I can't find a summary.

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                                          You know what? Labour can fuck off.

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                                            Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                            What's Jones's position? I can't find a summary.
                                            Himself and Sturgeon are putting a joint threat of “veto” down over devolution of powers from EU competency. Has also stressed importance of Single Market to Wales before. Tubbs is probably the man for the links.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                              When Labour get in, I'm pretty sure we'll end up with something along those lines.

                                              EDIT: sorry, didn't mean 'we'll end up with', meant 'we'll end up negotiating for'. We won't get it, probably, cos as you say we are very weak.
                                              We will get it if we stop talking shite about not having FoM and still Single Market type access worth more than fucking Thailand’s. Another Norway is Possible. Without FoM Scotland and Wales, and the North and East, will fucking die. And it’s not just hellish population pyramids for places that don’t get “let’s move to” features in the Grauniad, or farm work Undercutting Locals in bloody Lincolnshire. Tech, renewables, infrastructure, we will lose invaluable expertise that can’t be trained up from thin air in some Nativist fantasy. Cos who the fuck would want to live in the Nasty wee shithole both red and blue seem eager to birth.
                                              Last edited by Lang Spoon; 26-09-2017, 20:53.

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                                                Thanks. That could be interesting. Certainly a way to go; if the devolved nations can bring it to a halt, that could work (actually, and politically).

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                                                  Jones had a silly bit after the referendum but he's solidly pro-Single Market now. The Welsh MPs are more pro-Single Market than Labour MPs in general.

                                                  Muggins here has an MP in the Shadow Cabinet, who is going along with the current, er, cautious policy. We could do with her predecessor back.
                                                  Last edited by Tubby Isaacs; 26-09-2017, 20:48.

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                                                    I think a study showed Wales being most hit of any region by losing Single Market access, which will have focussed a few minds. The MPs who support the Single Market came out for it before the election, and all got very good results, even though lots of their boroughs voted Leave.

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