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    I suspect both. 2007-08 was an interesting time in some respects. Labour as a ground force was really moribund at the time (meetings were ill-attended and devoid of political substance), and the left couldn't really make any headway at that sort of level, but this was around the time in which McDonnell was hooking up with people like Andrew Fisher, who basically wrote the 2017 manifesto, and a small but influential new young left was emerging. They'd all have stayed on the sidelines though were it not for the financial crash.

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      This is the "plot" v McDonnell.

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics...dership.labour

      "Michael Meacher and I reached an agreement where he would urge his supporters to publicly support me but we have discovered there was a block in his support who were clear Brown supporters and as I launched my campaign for nominations on Monday they had already given their nominations for Mr Brown.

      "Some people now believe there was some attempt to prevent me getting on the ballot paper. Their support for my colleague Michael Meacher was to prevent me going forward."
      Roughly translated- I didn't have the votes.

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        That article up there lays it on a bit thick re Hayes and Harlington.

        Labour had never lost it till 1983 when the Labour MP defected to the SDP and the Tory won with only 40%. The Tories then did well in the 1987 London boom election (they even won Walthamstow that time), then squeeked home in 1992 when the housing market was crashing.

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          Hayes and Harlington and Walthamstow have diverged, demographically, in the past 20 years mind. H&H is nothing like a 'trendy metropolitan' seat at all. McDonnell's done well to make it such a stronghold.

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            I've heard a number of different accounts of Brown trying pretty hard to make sure MPs didn't nominate McDonnell in 2007. Of course he lacked PLP support anyway, but Brown was a long way from being relaxed about it. He didn't want a contest. An instinct that, in the end, did Brown no favours at all.

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              He couldn't have foreseen how "unelected Prime Minister" would be used against him. Funnily enough, it was literally never mentioned with the current PM.

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                Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                Hayes and Harlington and Walthamstow have diverged, demographically, in the past 20 years mind. H&H is nothing like a 'trendy metropolitan' seat at all. McDonnell's done well to make it such a stronghold.
                Yeah, but I was just talking about the 1987 election. The Tories picked up places in London they hadn't even won in 1983.

                There are other seats that swung like H&H. Brent North had a 10,000 Tory majority in 1992. Labour now 17,000 up.

                I suppose the difference might be that H&H has been a much "whiter" seat.

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                  Another reason McDonnell wouldn't have got much support in 2007, of course, was that he was still dicking about with "Euroscepticism". As late as 2011, he and Corbyn were still trooping through the lobbies with the worst Tories (and Caroline Lucas, who's sure reinvented herself) and giving a cross party gloss to the clusterfuck we're now in.

                  If there hadn't been a referendum coming by the time of the 2015 Election, I think Corbyn would have come under huge pressure for his anti-EU stuff and not won the leadership. As things turn out, Corbyn's been very skilful in keeping a Brexitsceptic alliance together.

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                    What do you mean by "dicking about with Euroscepticism"? What are the examples? I don't remember the EU either way being much of an issue among the Labour left in 2007. There were some Lexiters about the place, for sure, and people on the left went on to criticise the EU over Greece and such like, which was legitimate enough. Are you saying all criticisms of the EU should not have been made? Because it sometimes feels like you are. Which is as stupid an approach as pretending Lexit would lead to the sunlit socialist uplands.

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                      I think Tubby is referring to the 2011 parliamentary vote for a referendum, when Corbyn, McDonell and 17 other Labour MPs voted in favour of a referendum, as did Lucas and 81 Tory sceptics.

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                        Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                        Are you saying all criticisms of the EU should not have been made? Because it sometimes feels like you are. Which is as stupid an approach as pretending Lexit would lead to the sunlit socialist uplands
                        Lucas has consistently criticised the EU for its corporatism while crediting its role in environmental standards, workers' rights etc. At most it's a change of emphasis rather than re-invention.

                        Lucas wants another Referendum. Not keen myself.

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                          Yeah but we were talking about 2007. Re 2011, there was an argument being made at that time - by Owen Jones and other Remain supporting types – that having an EU referendum might be a good idea, in that it would lance the boil and stop people banging on about 'undemocratic Brussels'. I was sympathetic to it myself, didn't mean I actually wanted to leave. Of course that argument turned out to be misguided but we all get it wrong sometimes don't we?

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                            The Lib Dems were in favour of a referendum too, as I recall.

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                              Lucas has consistently criticised the EU for its corporatism while crediting its role in environmental standards, workers' rights etc. At most it's a change of emphasis rather than re-invention.
                              Which is pretty much the Labour Left Remain position too. Which some people are eager to blame for everything

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                                Nobody's yet explained to me what's so terrible about the EU and such in need of reform. Obviously, the Eurozone is a different matter, but we've got a permanent opt out.

                                It was a difficult campaign for anybody to fight, but the best Labour position would be to get your picture taken in as many factories as possible and explain the importance of the Single Market. But the Prime Minister was the one who lost it.

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                                  So, one Richard Leonard becomes leader of Scottish Labour, while Dugdale prepares to spend the next three weeks with Ant and Dec.

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                                    Jeremy Corbyn tells a PS reporter that Kezia Dugdale should NOT be suspended for going on I’m A Celebrity... Get Me Out Of Here!

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                                      Maybe he wants to see her doing some trials, but he's not that mean, is he?

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                                        Who cares if Dugdale wants to go on I'm a Celebrity. Though best she forego her Scottish parliament salary for the duration. Glad Leonard won anyway.

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                                          Looks interesting viewing. I like in this clip how Stephen Kinnock is desperately trying not to have a "oh fucking hell" face.

                                          https://twitter.com/daily_politics/status/932589941766332416

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                                            His majority went up by 6,000, so he should have been happy. 6.7% swing from the Tories.

                                            Seemed to be fairly switched on during the Port Talbot steel crisis, but less good otherwise. Probably Corbyn's EU position played well.

                                            That was then, this is now. We've got the absurdity of McDonnell and Corbyn barely mentioning the Irish border problem.

                                            Come on, Somebody.

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                                              Tubbs, you don’t see what the media will do if those two pipe up? Would only be massively counterproductive if they say shit for now.

                                              The lesser spotted Starmer (who Adonis has now accused of working collaboratively on strategy with fuckin David Davies) should say something though.

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                                                Yeah, I do get that. But as you say, Keir "3D chess" Starmer needs to be made by them to say something.

                                                Owen Smith (who has the brief) is tweeting stuff about staying in the single market, but the best that's going to do is give a "Labour can't agree with itself story". Got to come from Starmer really.

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                                                  You're ugly. Your name is "Adonis". You get made a lord. A chance to change your name. What do you do?

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                                                    have you got your name lined up, Tonton, when the call comes? ;-) ...I'd go with Lord TonTon of AFCWimbledon- and you've earned it.

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