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    Lewis is quite horrible, one of the hacks who produces a stream of dog whistle anti-trans stuff. Unscrupulous is a word I'd use.

    Are we talking a few bad apples being used to characterize the entire party?

    I think that's kind of the case. There definitely are people who are happy to slide from criticising Israel to crude anti-semitism, and there have been for ages. And quite a few of those people are noisy about it.

    Meanwhile Antisemite Viktor Orban visits israel and his regime is lionised by the Spectator. Steve Bannon is a regular guest on British radio and TV. I find both of those far scarier than exactly which examples should be added to the IHRA defintion.

    Nef's posts here are great.

    Margaret Hodge being lionised as a great anti-racist, fucking abject nonsense. No wonder people are sick of those berks. Umunna, bugger off to the third sector consultancy you were born to lead.

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      From the Home Affairs Select Committee Report referred to be Stephen Sedley.

      We broadly accept the IHRA definition, but propose two additional clarifications to ensure
      that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel and Palestine,
      without allowing antisemitism to permeate any debate. The definition should include the
      following statements:
      It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to
      suggest antisemitic intent.
      It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal
      democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions,
      without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
      I thought Labour had attached caveats to four specific IHRA examples?

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        To be honest Tubby I don't give a shit. If the 68 rabbis and the German correspondent Economist are more exercised about calling Jeremy Corbyn an antisemite or that he and Labour are "turning a blind eye to Jew Hate" because of which IHRA examples caveats are being attached to than they are about Nigel Farage Interviewing Steve bannon on mainstream Media the Prime Minister making speeches about Citizens of nowhere or her former aide Nick Timothy writing antisemtic attacks on George Soros they can fuck off, frankly.Meanwhile the state of Israel has legally formalised its racism and is strengthening its ties with the extreme right and the Saudis, and Daniel Pipes is funding Tommy Robinson

        I can tell you which I'm more worried about.

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          From the article John referred to, by Brian Klug (thanks for the heads up).

          Four examples from the IHRA list do not figure in the NEC list in par. 9. They are as follows: “Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.” “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.” “Applying double standards by requiring of it [Israel] a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.” “Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.” Critics point to the fact that these examples are absent from the list in the NEC Code.

          They are not, however, absent from the Code altogether. Clearly, the drafters of the Code saw these four examples as potentially problematic, partly with an eye to the second part of the conundrum: how to protect free speech in the political debate over Israel and Palestine. Accordingly, in subsequent paragraphs they discuss these examples, along with other tricky issues, and recommend what they see as appropriate guidelines to assist people who have to apply the IHRA working definition. Whether they have ‘got it right’ or not is a question on which people of goodwill might disagree. But the drafters of the Code are surely right to see the need to discuss the complexities with these four examples; and I have yet to see a single critic acknowledge this or wrestle with these complexities themselves.
          I don't really see much complexity with those.

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            Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
            To be honest Tubby I don't give a shit. If the 68 rabbis and the German correspondent Economist are more exercised about calling Jeremy Corbyn an antisemite or that he and Labour are "turning a blind eye to Jew Hate" because of which IHRA examples caveats are being attached to than they are about Nigel Farage Interviewing Steve bannon on mainstream Media the Prime Minister making speeches about Citizens of nowhere or her former aide Nick Timothy writing antisemtic attacks on George Soros they can fuck off, frankly.Meanwhile the state of Israel has legally formalised its racism and is strengthening its ties with the extreme right and the Saudis, and Daniel Pipes is funding Tommy Robinson

            I can tell you which I'm more worried about.
            Me too.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
              From the article John referred to, by Brian Klug (thanks for the heads up).



              I don't really see much complexity with those.
              I think, in a few of the replies to this, they might be addressing what you're looking for.

              Though I'm largely with Nef here, I'm almost beyond giving a shit; not about the real need to get a good definition, and work with it to call out AS, but the way in which this is all being blown up by lots of media/political folk to imply something much more than an actual discussion about some examples - of course, what they actually want to do is bring Corbyn down by showing that he's a racist and rabid anti-semite - is absolutely doing my head in. Every minute picking this apart is, frankly, a waste of most people's time, it's a diversion, a smokescreen, a media brouhaha that has not made Jewish people any 'safer' - though I'm not sure they've been particularly unsafe in the Labour Party over the years - and may well have increased confusion, and even division.

              My friend who has just joined her brother (who, fwiw, until recently was taking schoolkids to Auschwitz every year) in Labour isn't an idiot. They both see that most of this isn't about the place of Jews in the Labour Party, or elsewhere. Oh bollocks, even writing this - I wasn't finished yet - has meant I've spent more time on it, it's so fucking depressing.

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                Thank you, that's interesting on the Nazis point.

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                  Absolutely bang on perfectly worded interview by Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi of Jewish Voice for Labour

                  (won;t do any good of course, but it's really worth watching)

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsUTXQTHViM

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                    Using this as the general Labour thread, not because of any connection to Corbyn.

                    https://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/...anya-1-8579969

                    Labour MP for Peterborough charged with perverting the course of justice. Accused of Chris Huhne tricks with speeding points. If guilty, this could get Kipper Tory clown Stewart Jackson back in Parliament.

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                      Fuck sake.

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                        No it won’t . The Conservatives won’t win Nerthampton.

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                          It's Peterborough- or am I missing something?

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                            Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
                            It's Peterborough- or am I missing something?
                            My mistake. Still won't win though.

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                              Probably right.

                              Interesting election results since 2005.

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterb..._constituency)

                              Tiny swing to Tory in 2010, good swing to Labour in 2015 and bigger than average swing in 2017. All in a seat about 60% for Brexit.

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                                Absolutely bang on perfectly worded interview by Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi of Jewish Voice for Labour
                                Yes, I found that very enlightening. The only point on which I would part company from her is her implication that, if the Labour leadership weren't having to deal with these unjustified diversions, it would be doing something useful in relation to the chaos of Brexit. Corbyn would be doing nothing remotely helpful on Brexit with or without this anti-Semitism saga going on.

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                                  i disagree, Corbyn as done a great deal of very positive things around Brexit. Including putting Keir Starmer in charge of the Labour party response.

                                  Unfortunately the entire commentariat seems to be engaged in denigrating Labour/ Corbyn as an antisemite poohead.

                                  I've heard more sophisticated arguments from a three year old

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                                    Appointing somebody doesn't count as doing something very positive.

                                    We're currently heading out of the Single Market, with dreadful damage to UK service exports. Any number of people could explain this to him in 5 minutes. "Sorry, I'm too busy fending off Blairites and the media" doesn't cut it.

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                                      Otherwise, he's doing fine, better than I thought he would.

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                                        you havent been paying attention

                                        Corbyn is not the prime minister

                                        not enough conservatives are prepared to vote against the government.

                                        some Labour figures are determined to support the government on Brexit,

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                                          And now all three Jewish newspapers publish the same front page about the existential threat of a Corbyn Government.

                                          Quite a thing when, to my knowledge, he hasn’t said or done anything in the past week that could be interpreted as anti-Semitic.

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                                            They talk of " the existential threat to Jewish life in this country that would be posed by a Jeremy Corbyn-led government”

                                            It's a load of fucking bollocks.

                                            You could almost call it a conspiracy.

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                                              Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. How dare Corbyn question the right of Israelis to murder Palestinian children.

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                                                I certainly think that this is doing the official Jewish community no favours and if anything is likely to increase antisemitism.

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                                                  Everything is anti-semitism these days
                                                  -Belief in Palestinian human rights
                                                  -Support for non violent opposition to the occupation
                                                  -Less than unquestioning support for Likud and its coalition partners
                                                  -A belief that the creation of Israel was not 100% benign and had victims
                                                  -Anti-racism

                                                  Broadening the definition so far means that pretty much everyone is anti-semitic and renders the term entirely meaningless, which in turn has the effect of making actual real anti semitism dangerously acceptable.

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                                                    Jewish Chronicle going for Jewish Labour MP Fabian Hamilton for not being sufficiently anti-Corbyn.

                                                    It's not jus what is anti Semitic these days, it's what's not

                                                    Not anti semitic.


                                                    white supremacy

                                                    blaming all your country’s problems on a Jew.

                                                    Sying Jews don't belong in the diaspora.

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