Corb Blimey!

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Absolutely, I agree with you. Just to be clear, I don't mean to suggest that Russia is this morally uncompromised, innocent state just minding its own business. It has strategic international ambitions and interests, it works to further those interests to the best of its abilities and I'm absolutely certain that it meddled in both Brexit and the US presidential election. Those are both Bad Things.

The response to both of those realities should be, "Of course they did - why wouldn't they?" Russia and the Western allies have been "interfering" in each others' politics for generations.

The "Soros money" comparison is a good one.

In the two years before the Brexit vote, the European Union took the Russian economy, neatly folded it down to about a third its size, wiped their arse with it, and thrust the shitty mess back into putin's hand. They would have done considerably more but the UK wasn't keen on hunting the oligarchs where they lived. The Russians have long been involved in supporting virtually every Eurosceptic party in the European union, from the front National, to the tory party. It's still less relevant though than the influence of some Americans. Namely Rupert Murdoch.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I meant explicitly pro-staying in the EU from here, in the way that eg Lucas is. I don't say that he should be like Lucas- it's his prerogative to make judgements- but I don't think he's got it right, and it's not surprising to me that the marchers would be strongly critical.

[Nefertiti2]

The government won by 3 votes. Cable and Farron made no difference.

Cable and Farron have voted for the Single Market and against Article 50. Corbyn whipped MPs not to vote for the Single Market and for Article 50 (with no conditions). And more generally leads a strongly pro-EU/EEA party but is working against the members views.

Well Farron and Cable made sure that there was no chance of defeating the government.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

That's true. Then again, I don't think anybody foresaw David sodding Cameron.

I don't think there were all that many takers in Britain for the Euro as a political project, though of course it was that. We could have joined it later anyway.

The first Tony Blair govt could have taxed wealth at 10% per annum and been re-elected. There's not really any reason for a country the size of Britain to have its own currency.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think they were already committed to a referendum on joining the Euro by 1997. And we didn't even have an independent central bank till that year. A European Central Bank was going to be a bridge too far.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Why are Labour sleepwalking into disaster. They aren't at the wheel, they've consistently voted against all this (unlike the Lib Dems) and they simply don't have the fucking votes in the Commons anyway. They could come out tomorrow and demand the immediate revocation of the A50 notification and full on Remain and it Still. Wouldn't. Fucking. Matter.

The Northern Ireland Backstop/no-deal brexit Iceberg was visible a year ago. Now its shadow covers half the ship, in a week poorly riveted steel is going to start grinding against Ice, and in four months time everyone is going to be looking for a door to float on. At this point in time running around pulling out your hair on national television would not be out of place. Though Ideally pointing out the Iceberg so Everyone could see it, a year ago would have been better. The Northern Ireland Backstop was a wedge that a half competent labour leader could have used to split the DUP coalition, or the Tory party, and forced an election.

It's a matter of perspective I think. If you're watching this from Ireland, Even Keir Starmer sounds like a clueless idiot. (Former OTFer The Supergrass used to work for him, while training for the Bar, and considers him to be an extraordinary mind and a thoroughly decent man, and a good word from the supergrass is a hard currency indeed) And that's kind of the Problem. It's difficult to know who to be angriest with the most. The Remain MP's reinforce the impression they gave in the referendum, of not understanding the importance of Remaining enough to be able to convince people to remain. The Ones who parrot the party line look like cynical triangulators who are going to be hoist on their own petard, and then there are the brexit enthusiasts, and either their branes have melted, or they're obvious villains.

It's the Remain MP's that I'm angriest with. They're supposed to be the ones asking the questions like "The British Economy is uniquely dependent on Services exports to the EU. What happens when your red lines leave us with a Homeopathic level of access to the European single market in services?" or "If we leave the customs union, how are you going to check the 7000 trucks a day that use the port of Dover?" or "If there is a no deal Brexit, what the fuck are we going to eat, where are we going to get it from, and how are we going to pay for it?"

They're supposed to be the ones who understand this and they're supposed to be the ones motivated to raise these uncomfortable questions. There's so much that they could be doing, and making people aware of, and yet they do nothing.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

It's the Remain MP's that I'm angriest with. They're supposed to be the ones asking the questions like "The British Economy is uniquely dependent on Services exports to the EU. What happens when your red lines leave us with a Homeopathic level of access to the European single market in services?" or "If we leave the customs union, how are you going to check the 7000 trucks a day that use the port of Dover?" or "If there is a no deal Brexit, what the fuck are we going to eat, where are we going to get it from, and how are we going to pay for it?"

They're supposed to be the ones who understand this and they're supposed to be the ones motivated to raise these uncomfortable questions. There's so much that they could be doing, and making people aware of, and yet they do nothing.

About a year was spent asking precisely these questions, and was met with the repetitive drone of "business will find a way", "europe needs the UK more than we need them", "they (the ferry companies and border agencies) will develop fast track technological solutions" and other such "a magic unicorn will come along" type stuff. Then when the questions continued to be pressed the phrase Project Fear appeared to suggest anyone asking them was in some way a paranoid lunatic on a par with "End is Nigh" bloke who walks up and down the high street in a sandwich board.

[NHH]

Brown was terrified that the UK's massive mortgage debt meant it was always a risk to give away interest rate policy to an organisation that had no brief to foster the UK's economic development, given that the Tories had fucked a 20-year reputation for economic credibility in one afternoon in 1992 when half the country's mortgages became unpayable for a few hours. The entire gambit of Brown's political economy was built on rising house prices to make people feel richer than the poor productivity returns through wages justified, and the credit boom that would cover the gap between actual income and desired spending.

[johnr]

About a year was spent asking precisely these questions, and was met with the repetitive drone of "business will find a way", "europe needs the UK more than we need them", "they (the ferry companies and border agencies) will develop fast track technological solutions" and other such "a magic unicorn will come along" type stuff. Then when the questions continued to be pressed the phrase Project Fear appeared to suggest anyone asking them was in some way a paranoid lunatic on a par with "End is Nigh" bloke who walks up and down the high street in a sandwich board.

I was about to make much the same point. The only difference between then and now is that, I guess, the perspective could shift slightly to 'see, we told you this was going to happen, and now you can see that we're closer to it happening, but it's not happened yet'. The reason why this is such a shitfest is that a large swathe of the country aren't interested in listening to it, and some polls notwithstanding*, that ain't changing much. Starmer recognises that, and is trying to find a political way of mitigating the very worst.

* I see the shifts, but worry that they're not enough. Apparently, Farage said something like 'Leave haven't campaigned for two years', which is probably correct - there has been nothing put in place since 2016 to a) stop the Leave lot from lying/cheating all over again, and b) ameliorate the terrible effects of our economic policies on the areas that voted Brexit. (A Labour government would at least have made a start on the latter, but part of the reason they didn't win was that there were some people worried that Corbyn wasn't pro-EU enough, or something, so we never got over the line...)

[Gangster Octopus]

Did Murdoch gain US citizenship?

Yes. The man who's done so much to distort the politics of the UK (especially England) by playing on nationalism is a man who changed his nationality from Australian to American because it helped him make more money.

[Gangster Octopus]

^Like.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

So why wouldn't the Russians want to give the EU a bloody nose? Again, I'm not excusing them interfering, I'm saying it's the way global geopolitics works. It's not Benevolent EU Undermined By Malicious Russia.

The EU did this because Russia invaded the Ukraine, and shot down a dutch airliner. The Collapse in the value of his economy was a predictable consequence of him doing a shitty thing. Undermining the EU has been a long term goal of Putin, because they have the capacity to interfere with his plans, and can slap him around. The downside for him in the UK leaving the EU is that the UK were the ones making sure that these sanctions didn't extend to oligarchs, because the Economy of the UK is largely built around Money laundering, "Offshoring", and the property market for billionaires. The EU would happily have come down on the Oligarchs like a tonne of bricks, but the UK were the ones limiting this. And it's not like this was a secret. George Osborne gets £650,000 to 'edit' the London Evening standard What was the quo for all those quids?

The other thing is that former Eastern bloc states joined the EU as enthusiastically as they joined NATO, because it would fundamentally limit the level of Russian interference. In Greece, they got caught paying fascists to protest over Macedonia's name change, and a bunch of russian "diplomats" got thrown out on their ear, by one of the most Putin friendly European govts. They tried to overthrow the govt of Montenegro.

When trying to analyse what is going on it's important to remember that Russia is basically a massive Fascist gangster state, seeking to compensate for its decline as a superpower, by trying to break up their neighbours into a more manageable size. People who try to say that everything would have been fine without Russian interference are idiots, the underlying problems still remain, but it's important to remember that it is a key factor in making a bad situation worse. Lets see what happens when the root around in the finances of Leave.eu.

I'd agree, which is why I find the obsessive focus on Russia's misdeeds disturbing. (Did Murdoch gain US citizenship?)

Murdoch became a proud American in 1985 in order to buy a bunch of tv stations and set up his Network of lies. Also noting that there are other people trying to fuck things up is only supposed to point out that there are a wide variety of problems. It doesn't minimize the Russian Problem. And the Problem with the Russian Problem could be seen in the aftermath of the Skripal poisoning. The EU said "We will support the UK in whatever actions it wishes to take against the Russians," making the point rather clearly that it is the UK is the one that was preventing the freezing of assets, and the targeting of people associated with the Putin Regime.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

About a year was spent asking precisely these questions, and was met with the repetitive drone of "business will find a way", "europe needs the UK more than we need them", "they (the ferry companies and border agencies) will develop fast track technological solutions" and other such "a magic unicorn will come along" type stuff. Then when the questions continued to be pressed the phrase Project Fear appeared to suggest anyone asking them was in some way a paranoid lunatic on a par with "End is Nigh" bloke who walks up and down the high street in a sandwich board.

These should have been the first three questions in every prime minister's question time. There is literally nothing more important to the future of the UK, the well being of its economy, and its capacity to function as a state and protect its citizens from poverty. It should not have been beyond the ken of the Labour party to get the EU to give answers to these questions, which the Labour party could use to expose the nonsense at the heart of the Govts lies and efforts to kick the can down the road.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Brown was terrified that the UK's massive mortgage debt meant it was always a risk to give away interest rate policy to an organisation that had no brief to foster the UK's economic development, given that the Tories had fucked a 20-year reputation for economic credibility in one afternoon in 1992 when half the country's mortgages became unpayable for a few hours. The entire gambit of Brown's political economy was built on rising house prices to make people feel richer than the poor productivity returns through wages justified, and the credit boom that would cover the gap between actual income and desired spending.

See, when you put it like that, you have to wonder what was the point of New Labour? The worry about the European Central Bank having no brief to foster UK economic development seems a bit misplaced, when the UK govt had no plans to do that either. The reason you would join the Euro is to move away from this sort of economy, and the idea that central banks can foster economic development like this is rather quaint in the modern world.

[NHH]

Yes, but Brown worried that if he needed to, they could impress upon the Bank of England the need to act in defence of votes mortgage affordability the wider interests of the Uk economy in a way that wouldn't have been possible in the ECB.

But yes, it does rather call into question the point of New Labour. It's almost like it was a sticking plaster with no genuinely transformative ambitions, or something.

[Lucy Waterman]

Oh not really. Always about pragmatism rather than ideology for me. A sticking plaster with no transformative ambitions sounds pretty good compared to where we are now.

In all honesty, I’ve never thought my personal beliefs had much to do with the way British governments are elected. Just wanted one with the greatest capacity for progressive change. If Corbyn gets to a second term, I’d feel rather foolish. But if you’d prefer to think of me as some Blairite straw man, fair enough, I know that’s how political discourse is these days.

[Lucy Waterman]

Anyway Blair did have some transformative ambitions in his third term, and they were all shit and mental.

[Nefertiti2]

McDonnell

https://twitter.com/thepileus/status/1065313928115310595

[Nefertiti2]

The Foreign Office has been paying for anti-Corbyn propaganda

https://twitter.com/calcorkery/status/1071688942754369536?s=21

[That Night In Barcelona]

I'm sure that will be headline news on the BBC.

[Nefertiti2]

Strong statements by Thornberry and McDonnell
-can the BBC ignore this?

https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellmp/status/1071793451438620673?s=21

[Etienne]

They've also retweeted some things criticising the Tories and the Right.

I don't think it's a good idea for the FO funded orgs to be criticising any elected politicians, but it doesn't look like it is a rightwing smear operation, it's just anti-Russian.

[Nefertiti2]

You’re easily pleased.

[Etienne]

*shrugs*

[Nefertiti2]

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1071863036632317952

state secretly funds "charity" to intervene in British politics.

They attacked the leader of the opposition but they also called out am obscure Tory peer so that's Ok...