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    So, Stephen. How did that documentary that you wanted to record your first steps towards assuming the leadership of the Labour Party work out for you?

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      Originally posted by Tubby Isaacs View Post
      His majority went up by 6,000, so he should have been happy. 6.7% swing from the Tories.
      Or as he said himself in that documentary, a bit of a "knock back" but "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger".

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        The kids need him though! He’s a bridge to the “older generations”. Fuck sake, craven bollocks even he surely can’t believe.

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          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
          Or as he said himself in that documentary, a bit of a "knock back" but "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger".
          Was it me or did Helle-Thorning Schmidt seem like pretty much the embodiment of why European soc dem parties are in the shit? Soulless neoliberal ghoul. You really see what a people’s politician looks like in the brief cameos by Neil, say what you want about the man but he has social skills.

          I’ll give Stephen credit for one thing - he backed himself. He lost, but Ruth Cadbury and Lucy Powell couldn’t even do that. Powell cut a downright pathetic figure whinging about Momentum activists, showing up with their manuals giving a shit about politics and believing in something. It wasn’t even whinging to the ref, it was whinging to your opposition that they’re not shit anymore.

          They all came off horribly. Sarah Champion’s line about Sun readers was nauseating.

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            Oddly, I didn't actually expect Kinnock to be an absolute out-and-out self-entitled wanker, but he really is, isn't he? I only caught the last 30 mins, having been at a Momentum meeting, so I liked the last bit of footage.

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              It’s worth watching on catch up. You’ll need a cigarette after.

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                Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                Was it me or did Helle-Thorning Schmidt seem like pretty much the embodiment of why European soc dem parties are in the shit? Soulless neoliberal ghoul. You really see what a people’s politician looks like in the brief cameos by Neil, say what you want about the man but he has social skills.

                I’ll give Stephen credit for one thing - he backed himself. He lost, but Ruth Cadbury and Lucy Powell couldn’t even do that. Powell cut a downright pathetic figure whinging about Momentum activists, showing up with their manuals giving a shit about politics and believing in something. It wasn’t even whinging to the ref, it was whinging to your opposition that they’re not shit anymore.

                They all came off horribly. Sarah Champion’s line about Sun readers was nauseating.
                I think Cadbury was slowly understanding something was going on when all those activists turned up to help her - contrasted with the bits are the start where she was on her own pleading with people. Powell, I had a fair bit of sympathy for unti the end, when she complained about Momentum turning up and holding her accountable for her actions. Difficult to complain about people trying to push her out when at the start of the programme she was open about trying to push Corbyn out.

                Again, I thought Champion was decent until that bit with the Sun at the end. Blaming Momentum for the reaction to her writing in a newspaper that has spent the last few years attacking everything Labour and what they stand for, let alone giving something where she may have had a point but was so easily twisted into something nasty. At least she said it was stupid of her to do it, or she it would have been the least self-aware thing said in the programme apart from.. well, anything Stephen Kinnock said.

                What was most interesting was that the makers clearly set out to present something documenting putting the boot into the last days of Corbyn and, like everyone else, didn't spot what was going on. Couldn't they find a pro-Corbyn MP to contrast it all with? The post-election stuff seemed absolutely tacked on, no real examination of why people were so enthusiastic. Just some meetings and "oh. they used Facebook". Cadbury disappeared, Powell is shown unable to get into the main room - a swift one line about none of them showing to Corbyns speech. Kinnock blaming his mum for his dad falling into the sea. Christ it was funny. "Funny ha ha" but in the Nelson from the Simpsons way.

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                  One day over a pint I'll report on some of the stories I heard regarding Young Master Kinnock from his days with the British Council in Russia. He certainly rose quickly within the various arms of the diplomatic service without much aptitude. This of course had nothing to do with his dad at that time being the head of the British Council.

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                    Lucy Powell has been an idiot for years, and gets better and better at it with practice. Don't know anything about Cadbury or Kinnock, but nepotism is not a form of neoliberal decadence to which the current leadership is immune.

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                      That makes it OK then?

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                        Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                        I think Cadbury was slowly understanding something was going on when all those activists turned up to help her - contrasted with the bits are the start where she was on her own pleading with people. Powell, I had a fair bit of sympathy for unti the end, when she complained about Momentum turning up and holding her accountable for her actions. Difficult to complain about people trying to push her out when at the start of the programme she was open about trying to push Corbyn out.

                        Again, I thought Champion was decent until that bit with the Sun at the end. Blaming Momentum for the reaction to her writing in a newspaper that has spent the last few years attacking everything Labour and what they stand for, let alone giving something where she may have had a point but was so easily twisted into something nasty. At least she said it was stupid of her to do it, or she it would have been the least self-aware thing said in the programme apart from.. well, anything Stephen Kinnock said.

                        What was most interesting was that the makers clearly set out to present something documenting putting the boot into the last days of Corbyn and, like everyone else, didn't spot what was going on. Couldn't they find a pro-Corbyn MP to contrast it all with? The post-election stuff seemed absolutely tacked on, no real examination of why people were so enthusiastic. Just some meetings and "oh. they used Facebook". Cadbury disappeared, Powell is shown unable to get into the main room - a swift one line about none of them showing to Corbyns speech. Kinnock blaming his mum for his dad falling into the sea. Christ it was funny. "Funny ha ha" but in the Nelson from the Simpsons way.
                        According to Champion on Twitter, it is true that the original aim was to document the downfall of Corbyn, and the programme makers had to go back to the commissioners to ask to complete the programme when it didn't turn out like that.

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                          Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                          That makes it OK then?
                          ??? No, of course not. Both are shite.

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                            It was just an odd bit of whataboutery.

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                              Not whataboutery in the least. Whataboutery is designed to excuse one side, in this case both shouldn't be accepted. Ideally, Neil Kinnock and Corbyn should both be sanctioned. All crimes punished, none excused.
                              Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 21-11-2017, 10:33.

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                                No, whataboutery is designed to distract attention away from something by focussing on something else (eg, "But Hillary's emails!"). It's not necessarily about excusing one's own behaviour (though often it is - eg Israel's repeated "But, Hamas")

                                Whatever, it sounded odd, to be honest. I have heard significant volumes of anecdotal evidence that SK got fast tracked to jobs he was neither qualified for, nor capable of doing, because of his connections (primarily his father). That is all. This does not excuse any other examples of nepotism nor should it be read as suggesting that this is the only time in the political sphere that incompetent people have got places because of connections.

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                                  Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                  No, whataboutery is designed to distract attention away from something by focussing on something else (eg, "But Hillary's emails!"). It's not necessarily about excusing one's own behaviour (though often it is - eg Israel's repeated "But, Hamas")
                                  Agreed. Ad hoc tu quoque?

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                                    Lucy Powell was pretty sharp as Education shadow. I'd have had her back in that job, with Rayner in another top job, and somebody else moved out. But sounds like that might not be a good idea.

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                                      As a citizen of a country where we now seem to do little else other that Whataboutery, I would posit that both proposed definitions are valid.

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                                        Scottish Labour vote not to suspend Dugdale, saying she should "present her account of events" on her return:

                                        https://www.theguardian.com/politics...493506add64adc

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                                          Watched the Powell/ Kinnock etc. show last night. As an old man Kinnock Senior has turned into his 80s puppet...

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                                            Given the programme was about election campaigning and political strategy, Powell - the genius who brought us the Ed stone – did indeed come off risibly. I suspect she felt envious that a load of 'unelectables' had shown her how to succeed in adding votes where she had so obviously failed. And that whinging – "but they come to meetings! With strategies!" – was pathetic and entitled, and, alas, not confined to her. There's a lot of that about. "Stop asking us questions, deliver these leaflets, and shut up."

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                                              Long Guardian/Observer interview with Emily Thornberry

                                              Not particulalrly left wing, but not part of the Blair/Brown control freaks. likeable. And, like Barry Gardiner, ready to support Corbyn not try and thwart him.
                                              On Brexit

                                              Like most of her colleagues, the MP for Islington South & Finsbury was a passionate remainer. Why doesn’t Labour reposition itself as the anti-Brexit party and promise to reverse Article 50, if elected, before time runs out? “I don’t think we should be undermining our democracy. I think there are people who came out to vote in that referendum who hadn’t voted for literally decades, because they thought they weren’t listened to. And then we, the political establishment, turn around and go: ‘Oh, you’re too stupid. We’re not going to listen to you. We’ve actually got a better idea – we’re going to stay’? You just can’t do it. You just can’t do it.”
                                              I think the question is "how to do it?" but she can't say that publicly, of course, even if she thinks it. but God how much better than Caroline Flint or Kinnock or the other woman on that progreamme the other day.

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                                                Yes, I agree with that and with her position. I hoped Labour could persuade people in such a way as it doesn't look like we're dismissing their vote or any valid concerns that led to it, but present a change of mind as a sensible response to changed information and circumstance. So they can say "well, I voted Leave, but I didn't know they were going to make such a hash of it and that there was no NHS money!" rather than making them lose face about it. .

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                                                  It's not too late MsD. That also involves engaging directly with people, talking to them about the benefits of the EU in the present and for the future, and recognising that the inequality in Britain today has little to do with EU membership andeverything to do with the way the regions have been neglected using the EU as a scapegoat.

                                                  And it also means calling out the anti-Brexit campaigners and forcing them to confront the issues of neglect that have ben ignored for so long. the bread and butter issues of Housing. Wages. (real) employment Education. Investment. and comparing investment in the regions in England to say Germany. to win the battle for the EU, Labour has not just to defeat the Brexiteers, but the old Guard remainers- the entitled Cameron, Blair, little Will Straw axis that only used fear, and had nothing to offer the British working class.

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                                                    I'd put Thornberry in Starmer's job, to underline the particular importance of that at the moment. She's a good Labour barrister politician, which is what Starmer isn't, for whatever reason. I think she'd step it up and be more ready to level with the public.

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