We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

[Various Artist]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: If rooney had given the penalty to someone else he'd have been crucified for being mentally weak.

Like I say, I reckon that would have shown greater strength of mind, if anything — it would have taken some character to say "I don't need to break this record right this minute with a soft pen, I can do it anytime". But yes, sadly you're probably still right there Berba.

[Various Artist]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote: Ramsey had, indeed, been juggling the three around in the warm-up games. Remember this was a rigid 4-4-2, there was no way the three could all play. Greaves and Hurst played together against Yugoslavia, when Greaves scored, and against Denmark, where neither did. Ramsey started the World Cup with Greaves and Hunt. Hunt scored 3 goals in the group phase, Greaves none, so there was no way Hunt was losing his place. Then Greaves got injured ahead of the QF against Argentina, so Hurst came in and scored the only goal in that game. After that, Ramsey wasn't going to upset a winning side (and I'm not sure Greaves recovered from his knock anyway).

Thanks Rogin — the background is interesting, and for some reason I'd entirely forgotten Greaves played in the group stages, and indeed that Hunt was so prolific in that phase. I had it in my head that the switch occurred prior to the tournament.

Going back to the "was Charlton a midfielder or attacker or what" question, in the famous 'wingless wonders' 4-3-3 that was adopted during the tournament, did he count as part of the last 3 along with Hurst and Hunt? Which would presumably make the middle 3 Peters, Ball and Stiles?

[Ray de Galles]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Jongudmund wrote: One thing Wayne has had to put up with that Bobby, Jimmy, or even Gary, didn't is the celebrity culture of being a top-flight footballer.

Not saying that makes him a better player than those three, but given how footballers end up as much on the front pages as the back pages these days adds to the pressure on him compared to the others. He has also become a Mock the Week staple joke due to the Granny thing (the other staple jokes being Eric Pickles / Eamonn Holmes is fat and Scotland is the most unhealthy country in the world).

I don't think it has any bearing at all on his standing as a player but he always seems a sweet, self-effacing chap (off the pitch, at least) when it would be incredibly easy not to be.

He came across very well in his post-match interviews and dressing room "speech" last night, even to someone like me who is unimpressed by the hype around his record.

.

[Jah Womble]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

The record books can kiss my arse.

Good luck with that.

[Borracho]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Just noticed that Michael Mifsud scored his fortieth international goal the other night. Knocking in 40 goals for a team as weak as Malta is seriously impressive, more so than Rooney's 50 for England.

[Duncan Gardner]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Green Calx wrote: Just noticed that Michael Mifsud scored his fortieth international goal the other night. Knocking in 40 goals for a team as weak as Malta is seriously impressive, more so than Rooney's 50 for England

Very impressive indeed.

On Monday night at Windsor a fat middle-aged guy was going into the ground with his young son. Only when a crowd milled around them did I realise it was Sir David Healy.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Is EVERYONE from Malta called Mifsud? I've met three people here with Maltese origin (none of whom professed any knowledge of the others) and they were all called Mifsud. I slept with one of them.

[tracteurgarcon]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

No love on this thread for Steve Bloomer?

28 goals in 23 matches for England, at that rate he'd have 129 goals from Rooney's 106 appearances.

[Timewaster]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

At the risk of inciting another BRC pissing match....

It's Quite Interesting (well, to me) that Man United alumni are current top goalscorers of England, Northern Ireland and Scotland (joint), while Liverpool can lay claim to the same for Rep of Ireland, Wales and Scotland (joint).

I'm sure this could be turned into a Quiz but one too easy to be termed Roginesque.

The only one of the five nations where Liverpool have no claim over a Top 5 goalscorer is Northern Ireland, while for Man United, the same applies to Wales. Mark Hughes only scoring 16 goals from 72 apps surprised me, as (to a lesser extent) did Giggs 12 from 64.

[jwdd27]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

To be fair, Wolves, Coventry, Inter, Leeds, Spurs (twice), Celtic, West Ham, LA Galaxy and Aston Villa can all also lay claim to the Irish top scorer, and several of those would have a bigger claim than that earned by an unimpressive 20-odd game spell where if anything he did damage to his reputation.

[Timewaster]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Of course. I'm not saying Liverpool can claim to have materially influenced Robbie's international track record. Less so, I suspect, than Man United can claim to have influenced David Healy's. Just noting that he passed through...... I find it Interesting to look at the wider international picture too; both for Top Scorers (eg Netherlands and Portugal for Man United, France, Togo and NL for Arsenal) and for Top 5 (incorporating several additional countries including Germany, Norway, Swden, Spain, Uruguay, Czech Republic......). Does anybody know if there's an easy reference for total international appearances and goals scored individually and in aggregate by players of each club (at the time they actually played for them) in the UK or across Europe?

[dalliance]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

The way we ultimately judge the worth of a player's career is and always should be based upon a simple competition hierarchy based upon descending levels of difficulty.
1) what he does in the Champions League
2) what he does in one of Europe's major Leagues
3) what he does at international level.

Wayne Rooney has done quite well at number 1, very well at number 2 and modestly at number 3. That Pauleta, Podolski or Klose have done much better than him at number 3 of course doesn't make them better players as neither really hacked the other two to anyway near the same degree as Wayne did.

I reckon if Wayne retired tomorrow he would spend not a single sleepless night fretting about how his England career could have been better. Ditto Gerrard and Lampard. Sure these guys would have liked to have won an international trophy but they represent a nation with next to no tradition of achieving this, so I believe that internationals were considered a bit of a hindrance to the pursuit of domestic success for the players of England's habitual Champions League teams. I make an exception for Ashley Cole who is to my mind the solitary England player who matched his club form when playing for England.

The international game is such a bagatelle in being lucky to be born in the right place at the right time. The cream does not necessarily float to the top as it will invariably do at club level.

Rooney is in good company as there are many, many fine players who have the same career profile as him - Best, Giggs, Di Stefano are just a tiny sample - either through circumstances or sheer accident of birth. I am always utterly infuriated with people who say that Messi can't be compared to Maradona until he single-handedly inspires Argentina to a World Cup win - as if his comic book achievements in the much more demanding La Liga and Champions League don't make a compelling case for him being the most incredible footballer the world has seen.

So yes, Wayne's England highlights since 2005 have been as hard to find as his natural hair, but that he has a reputation to be questioned in the first place is the result of over a decade of high level achievement with his club. And that's what will define his legacy.

[Timewaster]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

While I fully agree with your very eloquent praise for Rooney, on a more minor note, I'm struggling to see quite how Asley Cole's 1 UCL title (+ Twice a beaten finalist - thereby matching almost any other English player of his approx generation (ex Scholes?) as far as I recall), 3 Premier league titles, a record-breaking 7 FA Cups and an Europa League winner's medal are matched by what he achieved with England. If you're simply saying his personal England performances were closer to his club form than was the case for either of the Ards or Rooney, then maybe fair enough. But the end results with England were (obviously) almost identically meagre and as nothing, compared to the club honours he achieved.

[Cesar Rodriguez]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

I think his point was that Cole replicated his club form for England not that he won any silverware.

[NickSTFU]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Rooney has come a long since Pete 'the feet' Wilding, an electrician posing as a professional footballer, had the boy wonder in his pocket during a FA Cup tie.

Often talked about round these parts.

[Patrick Thistle]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote: Is EVERYONE from Malta called Mifsud? I've met three people here with Maltese origin (none of whom professed any knowledge of the others) and they were all called Mifsud. I slept with one of them.

And Mifsud scores again! (It only counts if it went in cleanly with no deflections.)

[Mumpo]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

I feel this thread is incomplete without a mention of Ali Daei. Keep knocking 'em in, Wayne.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

I'm not so sure about dalliance's club v country analysis above. You can't tell me there isn't a little bit of Ryan Giggs that isn't going to die inside watching Gareth Bale receive a level of adulation from his country's fans next summer that Giggs never achieved. and look at what missing out on the final in 1966 did to Jimmy Greaves.

[Gangster Octopus]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Thing is that Craig hates international football, and assumes that everyone else does too.

[dalliance]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

A Craig only 'hates' international football for 46 of the 48 months in the four year cycle. Craig used to quite like the other 2 months but he has become broadly indifferent to them too since the expansion of the various Finals tournaments.

Other people are welcome to like or hate international football as they see fit, a point of view wholly unconnected with any point I made above.

Rogin; I'm sure through a sense of novelty Ryan Giggs would have liked to have appeared at a World Cup at some point in his long career. I think that novelty would have worn off pretty quickly with the likely group stage exit that would have resulted.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

I'm pretty sure that Ryan Giggs would really have loved to play in a world cup. I have no doubt that Wales would have gone mental like euro 88 or Italia 90 in Ireland, even if they didn't do particularly well. However I'm not sure that he is upset about missing out on the extra adulation. I think he would feel that he got more than his fair share.

This is probably the high point of michael Mifsud's career. It could only have been improved if that backheel flick had gone in instead of smacking against the post.

[Satchmo Distel]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

Isn't the thread title a straw man given that I don't see how anyone who has watched videos of Charlton can think that Rooney is anywhere near his class? Charlton was an attacking midfield player who would have been mainly a creator for Greaves or Hurst. He whacked in a fair few free kicks and long-rate shots, although I wonder if a modern keeper would have saved most of them (e.g. see v Mexico 1966). But that's irrelevant to the "better player" argument because Charlton simply did a different job, and did it more effectively.

I'm not sure that West Germany circa 1966-70 would have used their best player (Beckenbauer) to mark Rooney, yet they felt they needed to do that versus Charlton.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

erm I don't think you're taking into account that most man utd players play a variety of roles over their career. Bobby Charlton started as an inside forward, which Is a bit like a being in a pair of second strikers/ attacking midfielders, played on the left wing, in the post munich era teams, when Matt Busby should really have taken some time off, and then when man utd switched to 4-3-3, he played the role of a more skilful Frank Lampard, before dropping back to be more like a latter era paul Scholes. Most of his england goals come from his time as an inside forward.

I don't understand your point about being marked by beckenbauer. It was his job to mark the oppositions best player. Also I don't know if you've seen the 1966 world cup final recently, but Beckenbauer spent the final giving the ball away.

I'm not sure that people who make unflattering comparisons between current day players, and the heroes of the sixties have ever really watched too many matches from that era. after the first 15 minutes, the world cup final resembles a cross between that Walking Football initiative that harry Kane was launching the other day, and the priests Over 75 football match from father ted.

I think it's reasonable to praise players from that era, for being the best in the world in their time, but to say that they are better than current day players simply doesn't take into account the enormous leaps in virtually every area of football that have happened over the last 50 years.

[Satchmo Distel]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

That's a "Beckenbauer was crap" spoof, surely? Wingco has nicked your log-in.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

We all agree, Wayne is better than Bobby ...?

no, I'm saying that beckenbauer gives the ball away a lot in the 1966 World cup final. Beckenbauer wasn't crap. Football was radically different and vastly better by 1974, and a lot of that was down to beckenbauer.

The really noticeable player in 1966 was alan ball, who was the only one running as much in the 120th minute as he was in the fifth minute. It's nearly more eyecatching that geoff Hurst's hattrick. What ball is doing is so far removed from all the other players in the match, that jordan henderson would actually have to be able to fly in order to achieve the same impact.