Today's armchair football

[dalliance]

Today's armchair football

Dominate is the dominant word used in his press conferences. Extracts:

v Newcastle "We have to dominate the opponent and we did it today, we did it v Aston Villa and we did it v Tottenham (less) Today we dominated the game. Against Brugge we dominated the game. In pre-season we dominated the game v Barcelona and San Jose Earthquakes - only v Paris SG did we not dominate the game"

v Swansea "We were 85 minutes the dominant club. We were 85 minutes the better team."

Of course a moot point is how he defines dominating when it typically involves passing the ball side to side on the halfway line and barely warming the gloves of an opposing keeper.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Today's armchair football

I can't help feeling that if Louis van gaal was managing an english team that wasn't man utd you would be firstly singing the praises of a coach who valued the principles of possession, patience, technical accuracy and tactical discipline.

You would be pointing out that the opposition can't score when they don't have the ball for minutes at a time, that they are made run around like headless chickens to get it back, and when they do get it back they are exhausted, and trying to counter attack through the middle of the pitch where morgan schneiderlein and michael carrick are standing just in front of the defence waiting to see what they're going to do next. I think you would probably have noted that spurs and newcastle were restricted to one meaningful effort on goal, and villa didn't have any.

I think you would probably be singing the praises of Matteo Darmian, and the way that he reads the game, and the way that he shuffles inside to make three centre backs when Luke Shaw goes up the pitch.

And I think that you would point out that these players have only been playing together for a couple of games, and that as they became more used to each other, they would get better at executing their fairly sophisticated tactical plan. and note how man utd have built their team from the back first, and are going to work on their attacking plan once they have sorted out their defensive side of the game, and their means of moving the ball around their team.

It's just a thought.

[dalliance]

Today's armchair football

Your first paragraph is utterly meaningless. Yes, if Van Gaal was managing another English team like, say, Norwich City, then sure, being able to maintain possession for lengthy periods would of course be a blessing. It's a good defensive tactic for a start and any weaker team that can make itself harder to beat by giving away the ball less can only benefit.

But I'm making the not very bold assumption that the standards you expect for Van Gaal at Manchester United are enormously higher than the standards you would expect from Van Gaal at any other English club apart from Man City and Chelsea.

While he inherited a flawed squad it was still one that most clubs would give their right arm for and of course most other English clubs have not had the benefit of hundreds of millions of pounds worth of acquisitions. So you know, horses for courses and all that.

It's curious how proud you are about how few chances United have given up this season when you ignore just how few decent chances created at the other end. And to think that David Moyes was dismissed as a too defensive coach who did not understand the attacking culture of the club.

I also am not seeing this opponents driven to exhausted distraction business you keep going on about either because watching opponents knocking a ball about between themselves on the halfway line isn't tiring, it's just a bit boring.

If anything it's Man United who look like they tire themselves out rather than their opponents. As expensive and heralded a signing as Bastian Schweinsteiger is, he's only capable of doing a midfield job share with Michael Carrick. And the rotund and out of shape Wayne Rooney did not look like he was fresher than Ashley Williams when the latter contemptuously eased him off the ball late in the game. As Louis would say: Ashley dominated Wayne.

Equally complaining about having to bed in new players conventiently fudges the issue that all teams have new players to bed in, well all except Arsenal. Ayew is new to Swansea but that didn't seem to inhibit him to any notable degree at the weekend.

Also Darmian and Schneiderlin - incidentally good players I like - seem to have settled in very quickly indeed so I'm not quite sure why Man United should be afforded more understanding than any other team. Perhaps if Van Gaal didn't fall out with so many players then they wouldn't need to keep bringing them in.

And it's touching that you think the defence is in any way sorted. You are the man who regularly derides Barcelona because they play a shortish defensive midfielder at centre half and now you have not a peep to offer when Man United play their own shortish defensive midfielder at centre half.

It was fine against limp opponents like Tottenham, Newcastle and Aston Villa, but by christ did Gomis bully Blind something awful at the weekend.

We'll see how things develop over the season but at the moment Van Gaal's United is rather like Elton John's wedding to Renate Blauel - a bit of a sham and totally non-penetrative.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Today's armchair football

But probably dominant.

[anton pulisov]

Today's armchair football

And it's touching that you think the defence is in any way sorted. You are the man who regularly derides Barcelona because they play a shortish defensive midfielder at centre half and now you have not a peep to offer when Man United play their own shortish defensive midfielder at centre half.

Daley Blind is not actually a defensive midfielder by trade. He started out at Ajax as a left-back and a voorstopper. The latter position is basically a the more forward of the two centre backs, because in the Ajax system the back four play in more of a diamond formation rather than a flat back four.

Blind only ended up as a defensive midfielder fairly recently, in the last two years or so.

I've never really been a fan of Blind myself. He's like a young John O'Shea. Clearly he has potential, but as what?

[G-Man]

Today's armchair football

dalliance wrote:
We'll see how things develop over the season but at the moment Van Gaal's United is rather like Elton John's wedding to Renate Blauel - a bit of a sham and totally non-penetrative.

Applause!

[Tennis Borussia]

Today's armchair football

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: I think we can conclude that van gaal isn't a rigid tactical idealogue

In the meantime, Manchester United's players have concluded that van Gaal is a rigid tactical ideologue in what appears to be a rigidly tactical leaking by players to the British media:

"some squad members feel like 'robots' under the manager's famously methodical approach and as though they are wearing 'straitjackets' when they go onto the field of play."

Not rigid enough?

"Stars are also struggling to adapt to [...] the regimented structure Van Gaal has imposed"

Well, at least these young whippersnappers aren't using the actual word "rigid," right?

"Rooney and Carrick went to speak to their manager about his overly rigid methods."

Why can't they just understand that as long as they follow his instructions, they'll look like geniuses and the team will win...

"Senior stars thought to be concerned about their side's lack of attacking threat, and believing the manager's training methods are partly to blame. Rooney and Carrick told Van Gaal that the players felt they had become suppressed"

At least his rigidity won't extend to just ignoring what his most experienced players are telling him, right?

"Van Gaal has made no attempt to change his methods... 'Everything is in zones. It's a case of "you can only go this far". The feeling is that they are being turned into robots. Everything is structured.'"

But... what about the philosophy?

di Maria: 'Van Gaal has his philosophy, and that is one of the things that made me want to leave.'



There's a bunch more dirty laundry being aired all over in advance of the Liverpool game (with various 'exclusives' having different details), in what seems to be a concerted effort to put pressure on LvG from inside the club.

Having followed Louis at Bayern, there are some parallels (and some big differences):

First, some of the internal drama at Bayern started over LvG sidelining their #1 keeper. (He was eventually fired after their #2 keeper failed to save a relatively straightforward shot).

He rowed openly (and behind closed doors) with a lot of the players, many of whom lived in fear of him (or had outright hatreds). But then, he also picked leaders and promoted some players who'd benefit from his guidance in the long run. He didn't show much talent in switching formations or players to counter threats; Holger Badstuber infamously made Diego Milito look like Leo Messi.

Not to beat the dead horse for too long, but at Bayern his tactical inflexibility and desire for ball control largely in their own half made Bayern very dull and ultimately very predictable. The complaints from former United players and the English media are basically German article translations from 2010/2011.

[Borracho]

Today's armchair football

Jesus, it's a wonder that van Gaal ever won a match in his entire life.

[Cesar Rodriguez]

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dalliance wrote:

After that the Dutch were fortunate against Chile and Mexico.

Yup. El tri were undone because their coach showed the Dutch too much respect and took Dos Santos off at the 60 minute mark. Mexico had played most of the football in that game up until they decided to retreat into their shell.

[dalliance]

Today's armchair football

At least complaints about the tactics is a step up from Rio sodding Ferdinand complaining about David Moyes stopping chips being served in the canteen.

Moyes might not have been the ideal long-term solution for Man United but every day since he left a little bit more of his reputation is salvaged.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Today's armchair football

Hmm, Van gaal is almost infinitely tactically flexible. Last year Man utd played 4-3-3. 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2, 4-4-2 diamond, 3-5-2. He is however pretty systemically rigid. Calling Van Gaal tactically rigid makes even less sense than calling Pep Guardiola tactically rigid

There's nothing really in the substance of that story. Van Gaal was talking last season about regularly having lengthy discussions with Rooney and Carrick where he would explain what he wanted, and they would give him their feedback. Those players have his full permission to basically raise anything with him in those meetings. This event is portrayed almost as being the 21st century equivalent of a cross between the angry torchwielding mob appearing at the gates of castle Frankenstein, and Oliver Twist asking for more.

He was talking about that again yesterday

The interesting bit is how it came out and why it came out now, and why it was spun the way it was. I'm curious as to the point of it. I doubt that it came from the two players involved because they are very much the good boys in class. But everyone else in the club would know this. It's nothing that hasn't happened before either.

The players didn't like it either when Carlos quierroz was endlessly drilling them in defensive shape. However that did turn them into perhaps the best defensive unit ever. The difference between now and then is that we only really heard about how much it pissed off the players at the time, in the last couple of years. I'm also not sure about what the point of leaking it is.

Your first paragraph is utterly meaningless. Yes, if Van Gaal was managing another English team like, say, Norwich City, then sure, being able to maintain possession for lengthy periods would of course be a blessing. It's a good defensive tactic for a start and any weaker team that can make itself harder to beat by giving away the ball less can only benefit.

I was just making the point that if he was managing another english club you would be taking an entirely different approach. Like when mourinho started at chelsea with a load of 1-0's and 0-0's and barely ventured out of his own half. If I remember correctly you attributed that to him getting across his system and methods, and building from the back.

But I'm making the not very bold assumption that the standards you expect for Van Gaal at Manchester United are enormously higher than the standards you would expect from Van Gaal at any other English club apart from Man City and Chelsea.

I expect him to create an awesome (in the now archaic sense) 21st century footballing machine that chokes and mangles all in front of it, and lay the groundwork for the next 10 years of play by giving united a particular system of play. This is a complicated task, and I don't expect it to be done in just a couple of games. If it was that easy, then everyone would be playing like some version of that 95 ajax team. I am more interested in how far man utd are along that process, particularly given that essentially united lost basically all sense of coherent team play under Moyes, and were over reliant on individual players to drag them out of the shite, and getting overrun by virtually every team in the top half of the table.

While he inherited a flawed squad it was still one that most clubs would give their right arm for and of course most other English clubs have not had the benefit of hundreds of millions of pounds worth of acquisitions. So you know, horses for courses and all that.

I don't know so much about that to be honest. The squad he got from David Moyes was massively unbalanced by the departure of a whole host of key players, most of the signings made that summer seem to have been made only with slight reference to the manager, and then he had to go through the players at his disposal to see who was and wasn't suitable to play using his methods.

This summer was when he was able to sign four or five players that he was able to scout and choose, and it will probably be next season before he gets all the players he needs to have two players for every position that can do what he wants.

It's curious how proud you are about how few chances United have given up this season when you ignore just how few decent chances created at the other end. And to think that David Moyes was dismissed as a too defensive coach who did not understand the attacking culture of the club.

but van gaal isn't a defensive coach, he's a very attacking coach, with a complete system of play, that he has only managed to partially implement. The point I was making was that something that united have received absolutely no credit for is that they look vastly more solid than last season, and that a byproduct of united's possession game that is already visible is that it is very difficult for opposition attacking players to do anything meaningful when faced with this approach.

I also am not seeing this opponents driven to exhausted distraction business you keep going on about either because watching opponents knocking a ball about between themselves on the halfway line isn't tiring, it's just a bit boring

I was at the game against Villa, and you could see that villa's forwards were gradually exhausted by continuously playing piggy in the middle, and when they did get the ball, they were a) surprised b) facing a defence that had a very strong shape c) tired. The other thing to remember is essentially man utd are moving to a model where the ball does most of the work, which reduces the amount of high speed running that Man utd players have to do over the course of a game, to the amount that is necessary to make this work. Passing the ball around between players who are in preassigned positions isn't very tiring. Trying to get the ball back from a team like that really is. The longer united keep at this, the quicker they will become at moving the ball around, and the more tiring it will be for the whole opposition team.

Equally complaining about having to bed in new players conventiently fudges the issue that all teams have new players to bed in, well all except Arsenal. Ayew is new to Swansea but that didn't seem to inhibit him to any notable degree at the weekend.

This is weak. Andre Ayew was the only new player in a team that has been working on its system of play for a number of years now. He was slotted into a well oiled, well drilled machine. It's not remotely comparable with a team that has five new players, and three players learning a new role.

Also Darmian and Schneiderlin - incidentally good players I like - seem to have settled in very quickly indeed so I'm not quite sure why Man United should be afforded more understanding than any other team.

But Darmian and Schneiderlein are only playing very limited versions of what is ultimately expected of them. Both are bedding in and focussing more on the defensive side of their jobs until they gain the practice and form the partnerships they need to contribute more to the teams play with the ball. At the moment Darmian is playing rather cautiously, slotting across to make a three at the back when united send most of their attacks down the left hand side. With practice and time, he can work on overlapping with Mata, and provide more attacking balance, while shaw learns to slot into a back three, and keeping shape. Schneiderlein needs to become more proactive on the ball. These players are already playing well, but there is room for a lot of improvement as they become more familiar with their roles, and their teammates.

Perhaps if Van Gaal didn't fall out with so many players then they wouldn't need to keep bringing them in.

Have you considered that Van Gaal may decide that a player isn't up to his requirements and move them on without falling out with them. He's trying to get to a point where he has 25 players who can play the way he wants, and a lot of people are going to have to leave in the short team. It doesn't mean that he has rows with them. If players are unhappy at having being tried, and found wanting, that's ultimately their problem, and given how quickly man utd move them on, it's not really that much of a problem for him.

And it's touching that you think the defence is in any way sorted. You are the man who regularly derides Barcelona because they play a shortish defensive midfielder at centre half and now you have not a peep to offer when Man United play their own shortish defensive midfielder at centre half.

Firstly Daley Blind is not that short. He's 5'11, which is two inches taller than javier Mascherano. The second thing is that he's the only one of the back seven who isn't at least six feet tall. De Gea is five inches taller than Valdes, Darmian is four inches taller than Danny Alves, Shaw is five inches taller than Jordi alba. Carrick, schneiderlein, herrera, schweinsteiger, and fellaini are all over six feet tall. And if they're needed at full back, valencia and young are both 5'11. Chris smalling is as tall as Gerard Pique, and while Smalling can't hit a coke can from seventy yards with a first time pass like pique, he does possess the considerable advantage of being able to run and jump.

Sure Blind had trouble with Gomis, much like every other defender in the league for the last couple of months, but the trick is for him to learn how to get around this. He's no smaller than ricardo carvalho, and he's already shown that he's quite good at the sweeping up part, and when he steps forward into midfield, he can ping the ball around. He set up Memphis's second goal against Bruges, and in the second leg set him up to feed rooney for the second goal, both with long accurate passes to feet.

I'm sure that he will struggle along the way, but I have a high expectation that he will get there eventually. He's a good reader of the game, and very tactically disciplined and good at following instructions.

Either way, what's happening at the moment is that Daddy Louis is driving the car to the promised Land, and a lot of the children spoiled by a diet of continuous success are loudly screaming "Are we there yet" while everyone outside the car is banging on the windows screaming "This promised land of yours is really shit."

[Calvert]

Today's armchair football

Hilariously bad penalty decision in Aberdeen's favour and Rooney makes it 1-1.