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    #26
    Uber something less than Alles

    Mind you, the California Labor Commission had a thing or two to say about that.

    Uber: your drivers are employees

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      #27
      Uber something less than Alles

      For disruptive, I read it as "something that does something so differently - and better - that the old rules simply won't apply again".

      Once people realized how easy and convenient it was to download music (paid for or not), traditional records shops were doomed.

      'Above the law' is the distracting question when traditionalists seek to retrench their positions of power. But by then the genie is usually well out of the bottle. At that point, the smart thing is to figure out a way to work with it rather than against it.

      Bands are all "don't tape our gigs...that's our property". The Grateful Dead encouraged taping as a way of building their fan base.

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        #28
        Uber something less than Alles

        Dunno, WOM

        If it was all about efficiency and better service, one could provide that without eliding labour law and safety regulations while paying taxes.

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          #29
          Uber something less than Alles

          Of course. And that's where it will inevitably go through incremental change.

          Same as Napster's theft model ended up as iTunes. The principle of the disruption remains with the details changing to ensure it's on the up-and-up.

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            #30
            Uber something less than Alles

            I guess the question to ask is "Now that people have discovered this new thing, are they going back to the old way again?" If the answer is the inevitable 'no', then you'd better figure out a way of rebuilding your model to fit the new reality. Anything else and you're just stalling for time.

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              #31
              Uber something less than Alles

              Agree, they need to pay taxes etc.

              If they can get other providers to up their game in terms of attitude and service, that would be a good thing. Those are the key selling points for me, cost is third. Or maybe fourth, after convenience.

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                #32
                Uber something less than Alles

                It sounds like we are on the same page then.

                It's the libertarian bent of the disruptati, which they generally interpret as "you can't tell ME what to do because I'm special" that gives me great pause about many of these things.

                Regulatory arbitrage is a thing, as are cartels and the capture of regulatory agencies by those they are meant to regulate. A technological "advance" that relies on any of those is not a net benefit to society.

                It's interesting to me how the taxi industry has become a privileged oligopoly in so many cities with arguably different regimes.

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                  #33
                  Uber something less than Alles

                  Cost is so rarely a factor. Value is.

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                    #34
                    Uber something less than Alles

                    ursus arctos wrote: It's interesting to me how the taxi industry has become a privileged oligopoly in so many cities with arguably different regimes.
                    Yeah, it would interesting to know how many things are like this. Low interest/low appeal probably make it easy to go about your business. Apparently the bagged-ice business is like this. A handful of companies run the whole show and charge whatever they please.

                    And who'd be interested enough to do a bagged-ice exposé and blow the lid off of it? I mean, taxis...waste disposal...ice...eesh.

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                      #35
                      Uber something less than Alles

                      Presumably, the bagged ice business is more of a classic economic cartel, in which the participants have succeeded in colluding because the regulators don't give a monkey's about bagged ice, given its low Q ratings.

                      Taxis tend to be different, in that the economic conditions they operate under are heavily influenced/completely dependent on the state. In Paris, for instance, the required medallions were originally granted without any fee, until the city decided that they were going to stop issuing new ones. Unsurprisingly, what happened was that the existing medallions suddenly acquired significant value on the secondary market, and it is threat to that "value" posed by Uber and its ilk that is fueling a lot of the hostility.

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                        #36
                        Uber something less than Alles

                        I guess the question to ask is "Now that people have discovered this new thing, are they going back to the old way again?"
                        But the only actually new thing, other than regulatory/tax arbitrage, is the surge pricing, right? There's a bunch of tech on the operational side that makes it more efficient, but it's not really that different, in a "disruptive" sense, from what the likes of Addison Lee do. The difference is the differential pricing, which ensures a short wait even at peak times. But that's precisely the bit that customers don't like. If more cities had a viable licensed minicab network, Uber wouldn't have any real reason to exist except as a semi-luxury service for the semi-rich.

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                          #37
                          Uber something less than Alles

                          Exactly. Toronto's plates work the same way. You just can't get 'em.

                          And the quality of cabs got so bad a few years ago that they had to create a special class of new ones called Ambassadors. They can only be owner-operator cars, can't be run 24/7 and need to be inspected regularly, etc.

                          When it gets so bad that they have to regulate that...

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                            #38
                            Uber something less than Alles

                            Ginger Yellow wrote:
                            I guess the question to ask is "Now that people have discovered this new thing, are they going back to the old way again?"
                            But the only actually new thing, other than regulatory/tax arbitrage, is the surge pricing, right? There's a bunch of tech on the operational side that makes it more efficient, but it's not really that different, in a "disruptive" sense, from what the likes of Addison Lee do. The difference is the differential pricing, which ensures a short wait even at peak times. But that's precisely the bit that customers don't like. If more cities had a viable licensed minicab network, Uber wouldn't have any real reason to exist except as a semi-luxury service for the semi-rich.
                            Right, but over here I'd never heard of a cab company even bothering with a simple app until they had Uber to worry about. I don't know enough about Uber's model, but the pricing is variable, I believe.

                            And I don't know if semi-rich factors into it. People want a vomit-free car to show up when they need it and take them (safely) where they want to go. Even the idea of the lowest-price option for that is stomach-churning. Again, price vs value.

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                              #39
                              Uber something less than Alles

                              Oh, and we don't have mini-cabs vs black cabs here. We have cabs, and c'est tout.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Uber something less than Alles

                                WOM wrote: For disruptive, I read it as "something that does something so differently - and better - that the old rules simply won't apply again".

                                Once people realized how easy and convenient it was to download music (paid for or not), traditional records shops were doomed.

                                'Above the law' is the distracting question when traditionalists seek to retrench their positions of power. But by then the genie is usually well out of the bottle. At that point, the smart thing is to figure out a way to work with it rather than against it.

                                Bands are all "don't tape our gigs...that's our property". The Grateful Dead encouraged taping as a way of building their fan base.
                                My "Above the Law" comment was a reference to non-buses, non-cyclists, non-motorcyclists, and non-hackney carriages* using bus lanes.

                                Not anything to do with their pricing strategy.

                                * And "Authorised Vehicles"

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Uber something less than Alles

                                  I was responding to beak's use of it, Guy. But either way, yeah, disruptors tend to start by getting away with as much as they can and then being pulled back to a reasonable centre point.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Uber something less than Alles

                                    WOM wrote: I was responding to beak's use of it, Guy. But either way, yeah, disruptors tend to start by getting away with as much as they can and then being pulled back to a reasonable centre point.
                                    OK. It's a fair cop.

                                    You've got me bang to rights, guv', and no mistake.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Uber something less than Alles

                                      Why Uber doesn't exist here:

                                      "How much is a Taxi License in Vancouver, BC worth? A ‘Yellow Cab‘ full plate recently auctioned in a closed bid for a whopping $842,000 (two shifts, day and night). The buyer was ‘Yellow Cabs’ biggest share holder, called Peter. He already has over 10 shares in “Yellow Cabs”. Here is a person who is confident that the system will never change, and is willing to take great risks to create more shortage of taxis for drivers.

                                      Taxi companies have long denied that these are even sold for any monetary value. However since the proverbial cat has exited the bag, the Vancouver Taxi Association now claims that the value of the taxi cab is actually the value of the company stock; comprising of assets, goodwill etc.

                                      If the share + goodwill is worth so much, the matter is very simple, it does not matter if new licenses were given to interests outside the current taxi companies, as their goodwill is steadfast."

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                                        #44
                                        Uber something less than Alles

                                        That would seem to be tailor made for Uberesque "disruption".

                                        Is it the regulatory climate that is keeping them out? Does the "independent contractor" ruse not work in Canada?

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                                          #45
                                          Uber something less than Alles

                                          "Yes" to the first question. "Not yet" to the second:

                                          "Shortly after Uber Technologies brought its controversial ride-hailing service to Vancouver in 2012, it was effectively shut down by the Passenger Transportation Board, which regulates taxis and limousines in British Columbia.

                                          On March 25,[this year] Vancouver city council voted to extend a moratorium on issuing new taxi licences until October 31—a move that will likely stop Uber from resuming operations in the city until the fall."

                                          There are dozens of local Uber-like operations waiting in the wings, too. I'm guessing there are ... ummm... strong connections between the five (part-time) members of the PTB and the small number of city taxi companies.

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                                            #46
                                            Uber something less than Alles

                                            In the space of two years, Toronto’s taxi licences plunged in price from a high of $360,000 in mid-2012 to below $100,000 in mid-2014.

                                            What happened?

                                            New municipal rules, for one.

                                            And Uber.

                                            The taxi app, whose business practices are either disruptive or illegal, depending whom you ask, has proven wildly popular among some consumers and caused consternation among taxi drivers and local governments, many of which – Toronto included – have tried to kick them out.

                                            Chris Livisianos just sold a taxi licence for his father on Kijiji. He got $200,000 for it – bought in the 1980s for about $100,000, he broke even, adjusting for inflation.

                                            It was the last of three licences he owned – each sold for less than the previous one.

                                            “It kind of sucks that it dropped so much,” Livisianos said. “He sold his first one for $295,000, he sold his second one for $225,000, now the last one for $200,000.”

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                                              #47
                                              Uber something less than Alles

                                              Same thing in New York

                                              Since New York City taxi-meter revenue peaked in May 2013 at $599 per day per medallion, according to the New York Taxi and Limousine Commission, the average taxi-medallion owner has experienced a sharp drop in pre-tax income after debt service -- more precipitous than anyone has yet admitted.

                                              The culprit? Primarily Uber, the hot on-demand car-service start-up that has been valued in excess of $40 billion -- a number that keeps on rising, even as valuations fall for medallions, the license needed to operate a cab in New York. Corporate medallions (those sold in pairs for use as part of a taxi fleet) were last auctioned in April 2014 and sold for $2.6 million per pair, or $1.3 million each. In March 2015, there were transfers of medallions for as little as $1.8 million for a pair, or $900,000 each.
                                              Which has led the lenders who finance medallion purchasers (and take them as security) to cry foul

                                              Four credit unions that make loans to purchase pricy New York City taxi medallions today filed a suit against members of the city government, alleging they allowed Uber to illegally pick up street-hail passengers.
                                              You will notice that there is almost no space for the classic owner/operator in the NYC licenced taxi context any longer. The bulk of the medallions are in the hands of "fleet operators" who own dozens and lease cabs to drivers, and even they can't self-finance the purchase of new medallions.

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                                                #48
                                                Uber something less than Alles

                                                Why did I have the impression Uber were a bunch of sex pests? Was there some story about that a few months ago, or did I make it up? Was Ashton Kutcher involved?

                                                They don't exist here as far as I know. Buenos Aires taxis, whatever the locals say, are so cheap and numerous I think one would find it difficult to compete anyway.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Uber something less than Alles

                                                  They haven't (yet) been among the (rather numerous) Silicon Valley bros who have been outed as sex pests, but sexual harassment by drivers is one of the recurring complaints.

                                                  And one that they are seriously crap at attacking.

                                                  They also have been known to track "hostile" journalists.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Uber something less than Alles

                                                    Ah, thanks. I was thinking of... well, all three of those stories, as it turns out. Now what did Ashton Kutcher have to do with it all?

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