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    #51
    They're all on drugs.

    longeared never claimed otherwise.

    If Kimmage is saying he doped because he had to to try and compete against a doped field, its a good job he never applied the game of 'Lance said similar' to himself, isn't it? Or maybe hearing his ego-preserving excuses come out of Armstrong's mouth was part of his problems?

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      #52
      They're all on drugs.

      Kimmage took some amphetamines on a small handful of occasions, usually in post-season exhibition races, and has always been very upfront about that. Comparing him to people like Armstrong is self-evidently absurd. It's a way of trying to neutralise what he has to say, by making out that he's somehow as morally low as those he's criticising.

      I see Toro's manner gets more and more charming by the day, or in his case the night.

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        #53
        They're all on drugs.

        Yes, and that is the point. It is self-evidently absurd when he does the same to others, but that doesn't stop him doing so time and again. He should really let it go, or go the whole hog and spend his days dressed in a clown costume.

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          #54
          They're all on drugs.

          That's harsh, and could unduly hamper Toro's rise in his chosen profession.

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            #55
            They're all on drugs.

            Janik wrote: longeared never claimed otherwise.

            If Kimmage is saying he doped because he had to to try and compete against a doped field, its a good job he never applied the game of 'Lance said similar' to himself, isn't it? Or maybe hearing his ego-preserving excuses come out of Armstrong's mouth was part of his problems?
            Kimmage resisted drugs for years and only caved in on a couple of times during the end of the season during exhibition races (so, not to 'compete'), when he was so fucking exhausted and deluded that he felt that if he didn't do a minimal amount of doping that he would be dropped from the peloton and get the sack. After that, he became so disgusted with both himself and cycling, that he walked away from the sport he once loved at the age of 27, with little or no money.

            Lance Armstrong doped left, right and centre and was orchestrating the most advanced doping racket in the history of sport (in the words of the investigators). He created a massive corporate machine built on his lie, and regularly dragged others through the dirt. He insulted the wife of his former team mate, called a number of former team mates mentally unstable, called his former masseuse a whore, went out of his way to make sure that Greg LeMond's bicycle company went bankrupt. He also helped destroy the career of a number of up and coming clean cyclists by bullying them out of the peloton. He then retired to become a private jet flying multimillionaire and had absolutely no fucking intention of ever owning up to anything until the possibility of jail time loomed. And even then, he owned up to the bare minimum that was legally necessary.

            It is absolutely stupendous that you can even consider putting Kimmage and Armstrong in the same galaxy.

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              #56
              They're all on drugs.

              Green Calx wrote:
              I see Toro's manner gets more and more charming by the day, or in his case the night.
              You can resort to personal attacks when someone gets exasperated at your - 2am - customary evidence-free and argument-free accusations and asks for evidence or argument.

              Or you could, you know, provide any evidence or argument at all. Up to you.

              Comment


                #57
                They're all on drugs.

                The point about Kimmage is not that he's just as bad as Armstrong, and took drugs once so can never be trusted.

                It's that as a result of his own experiences, and his guilt over them, he appears to understand the whole of cycling - the whole of sport, at times - as a great Paradise Lost-style cosmic moral drama, in which the ultimate prize over which God and Satan themselves fight is the expiation of his - Kimmage's - sins, and the redemption of his soul.

                He is incapable of seeing anything in the sport except through this prism. Who wins races doesn't matter; all that matters is whether they were on drugs. What happens in races doesn't matter; all that matters is if it suggests drug use to him or not. It's the most Catholic narrative ever told, equal parts self-righteousness, self-justification, and self-laceration.

                That makes him a deeply unreliable judge of other people's credibility, and of his own culpability. So yes, it's relevant that his explanation of his actions is the same as Armstrong's. Not because HE'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS ARMSTRONG AND JUST AS BAD. Of course not; Armstrong is quite clearly a sociopath. But because it put the flaws and limits of his thinking in such sharp relief. It's not that he is like Armstrong; it's that his take on every situation is driven by the guilty fear that he is like Armstrong, and the constant need to demonstrate that he is not, by not letting a single suspicion go by without strident expression.

                That he sees Goody Froome with the devil, in other words, doesn't tell us much about Goody Froome.

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                  #58
                  They're all on drugs.

                  for ursus there, btw.

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                    #59
                    They're all on drugs.

                    Antonio Pulisao wrote: It is absolutely stupendous that you can even consider putting Kimmage and Armstrong in the same galaxy.
                    Again you have entirely missed my point. It's not that Kimmage = Armstrong here. It is that Kimmage thinks anyone who performs well = Armstrong to some degree. This is why he is not worth bothering with. He is letting one man dominate his world.

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                      #60
                      They're all on drugs.

                      I didn't see you make that point, but I agree with it somewhat.

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                        #61
                        They're all on drugs.

                        Its not a damaging conflict of interest to have those whose job it is to promote a sport be in charge of policing it. No. Uh uh. No way.

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                          #62
                          They're all on drugs.

                          I thought one of Coe's proposals in his campaign for the IAAF presidency was to move testing out to a genuinely independent body?

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                            #63
                            They're all on drugs.

                            "It's a declaration of war. Have you seen Daley Thomson let loose with an automatic weapon? Have you? I fucking have".

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                              #64
                              They're all on drugs.

                              That really is impressively poor from Coe. Like he's looked at Verbruggen's approach to doping in cycling, or Blatter's approach to corruption in football, and thought "Yep, those guys knew the way to get things done."

                              Meanwhile, from another possible contender for leading the IAAF:
                              Fellow International Association of Athletics Federations vice-president Bubka, the 1988 Olympic pole vault champion, said the sport should be more transparent.

                              "Athletics is the most fundamental of all sports and the way the world sees athletics influences the way it views all sports," he said in a statement.

                              "We cannot fail because the world would lose faith not only in athletics but in other sports and that would be a catastrophe for young people worldwide.

                              "We must be more proactive and even more transparent in our aggressive pursuit of a zero tolerance policy against doping cheats."
                              http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/70868871/iaaf-presidential-contender-sebastian-coe-says-they-feel-angry-and-betrayed

                              Comment


                                #65
                                They're all on drugs.

                                Soviet workers' hero is moral superior of Thatcherite. Film at eleven.

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                                  #66
                                  They're all on drugs.

                                  Sunday Times reports that 1 in 4 major marathon winners - including 7 at London - have had suspicious blood test results

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                                    #67
                                    They're all on drugs.

                                    Shobukhova is responsible for a considerable part of those on her own, and has now been essentially banned for life.

                                    Have the leakers revealed just how old these alleged results are?

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                                      #68
                                      They're all on drugs.

                                      And been clear that blood test values are expected to fluctuate quite a lot, and that one unusual reading is nothing more than a suggestion that rather more data is needed? It comes nowhere near to proving, or even strongly indicating that an athlete was cheating.

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                                        #69
                                        They're all on drugs.

                                        The thread title is an exaggeration. Only a third of them are at it.
                                        The IAAF has an awful lot of 'splainin' to do.

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                                          #70
                                          They're all on drugs.

                                          From the description of the report, this sounds to me like this could the product of the data that was leaked earlier in the month, though the reporting is less than crystal clear.

                                          If it is instead an actual compilation of failed tests, that would be incredibly bad.

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            They're all on drugs.

                                            People cheat regularly in other walks of life (exams, taxes, driving, marriage) so should we expect athletes to be any different, especially when the policing is inept?

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                                              #72
                                              They're all on drugs.

                                              We shouldn't, of course. Inept policing is the key here*. Especially as the IAAF are continuing to insist their policing is actually exemplary.

                                              ursus arctos wrote: From the description of the report, this sounds to me like this could the product of the data that was leaked earlier in the month, though the reporting is less than crystal clear.

                                              If it is instead an actual compilation of failed tests, that would be incredibly bad.
                                              It seems to be a compilation of confidential interviews, rather than failed tests. So not evidence of a cover up, as such.

                                              * - and this should be a massive wake-up call for other sports than Athletics, as well.

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                                                #73
                                                They're all on drugs.

                                                Asli Alptekin has been stripped of the 1,500m gold medal she won in London. It presumably goes to her team-mate Gamze Bulut, who followed her into silver.

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                                                  #74
                                                  They're all on drugs.

                                                  And it means a bronze for convicted drug cheat Tatyana Tomashova. Cleanest Games ever?

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                                                    #75
                                                    They're all on drugs.

                                                    Good piece from Pro Publica on why this is so difficult to stop.

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