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They're all on drugs.

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    #26
    They're all on drugs.

    That Vaughters piece is brilliant.

    Comment


      #27
      They're all on drugs.

      longeared wrote: Cycling has shown a few signs of going backwards this season actually - there have been a few more dubious results than in the last couple of years. One race in particular had an especially laughable winner.

      Is it just the British media who assume all our competitors are clean? There was serious discussion on OTF a while back about a long retired British sportsperson (not a cyclist) whose career trajectory we would likely link to being a pesky cheating foreigner were it not for their origins.
      Linford Christie, was it?

      Now there was a man who knew which shops to visit to get hold of the best ginseng.

      Comment


        #28
        They're all on drugs.

        Toro Toro wrote:
        Originally posted by Janik

        However, TT can't really expect the Tour de france thread to be devoid of drug references, or a great big cloud of suspicion.
        Indeed, no. But there are sensible discussions based on evidence and events, which are part of any decently thorough treatment of the race, and there are people gumming up the thread by writing literally nothing more substantive than "...they'reallondrugsthey'reallondrugsthey'reallon drugsthey'reallondrugsthey'reallondrugs..."
        In your paranoid hyperbolic imagination, half a post might be considered "gumming up" a thread, but we'll agree to differ!

        Comment


          #29
          They're all on drugs.

          Two posts, and just wait until next month.

          Comment


            #30
            They're all on drugs.

            Salazar issues an open letter
            http://nikeoregonproject.com/blogs/news/35522561-alberto-open-letter-part-1

            Comment


              #31
              They're all on drugs.

              Apparently the Danish anti doping authority investigating former cyclist and sporting director Bjarne Riis were denied access to the Operación Puerto materials by the Spanish authority. Surprise surprise.

              Riis put at least one of his riders in contact with Dr Eufemiano Fuentes, hence the Danes' interest.

              Fuentes himself has said that he worked with stars from all sorts of sports such as football and tennis, and that if he talked Spain would probably "be stripped of the 2010 World Cup". The judge in the case did not press him to name any of these, and much of the evidence has since been destroyed by the Spanish authorities.

              Still, at least they caught the cyclists.

              Comment


                #32
                They're all on drugs.

                I think I've said this before, but it really isn't surprising that anti-doping authorities can't get their hands on the Puerto stuff. That was going to be the case as soon as it became clear that no offences had been committed by the Sportspeople under Spanish law.

                To strip it back to the abstract, what is held by the Spanish courts is material that was collected by the police and technically belongs to the victims of a criminal offence. Fuentes was convicted only of endangeroing public health, the public including and most specifically the Sportspeople he was 'treating'.

                These were not samples given to the anti-doping authorities, which come with all sorts of signed consents that makes the anti-doping authorities ownership clear. They have no prior rights to them at all. I can't think of many court systems that would turn property belonging to the victims of a crime over to a third party, just because the third party was very interested in it and thought it might form the basis of a civil case against said victims. That would be a very odd thing to happen.

                The blood bags will eventually be destroyed.

                Comment


                  #33
                  They're all on drugs.

                  Pro Publica responds to Salazar

                  Salazar disputed several allegations that were not made in the stories, or inaccurately described allegations that were. He also confirmed others, admitting, for example, he tested testosterone gel on both of his sons.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    They're all on drugs.

                    Off-topic, but doesn't this make one shudder?

                    Brown... added “most coaches, not just Alberto, tell our women athletes they are too fat.
                    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746021

                    Comment


                      #35
                      They're all on drugs.

                      They're all on drugs - cyclists, athletes, tennis players. They become freaks for your enjoyment, so appreciate their superhuman feats before they drop dead.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        They're all on drugs.

                        You missed Footballers, Rugby players, Swimmers, Skiers and all manner of others in your little list, Roderick.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          They're all on drugs.

                          Davide Appollonio fails test for EPO. He's been on a steady downwards career trajectory since his time with Sky, so perhaps was looking to try to get that edge to earn himself a contract for next season - who knows? If he was fearing oblivion, he's found it the fast way, as the new WADA code for this season means he is looking at a four year ban.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            They're all on drugs.

                            All cyclists called Davide Apollonio are on drugs.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              They're all on drugs.

                              All? No, only something over 10% of them according to the head of WADA.
                              This interview sounds interesting. One should give it a watch, I think.

                              Oh, and given the elephant in the room of the Tour threat, we probably need to talk about Christopher on this one. It is the thread's purpose, after all. I think this is what Calx was obliquely referring to when he was posting pictures of said individual’s arms.

                              Worth noting David Walsh's position. He is on opposite sides to Paul Kimmage this time. And also reportedly said this on the BBC News Channel;

                              "I've also spent a lot of time looking at the people around Chris Froome, looking at what's going on in Team Sky. We're now three years into the Froome story. At the three-year point into my investigation into Lance Armstrong I had six people in his team who told me he doped.

                              "I haven't had one person, who works with Sky now or who was sacked by Sky, who has given me anything to go on or investigate. In fairness to Chris Froome my conclusion has to be that I've seen nothing that indicates he dopes and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he doesn't. It doesn't mean I know, but I certainly believe his claims."

                              Comment


                                #40
                                They're all on drugs.

                                OK, so maybe the cycling fans don't want to talk about one of the biggest issues, whether justifiably or unjustifiably, around the recent race. Maybe they will be more interested now that it's another sport in the spotlight?

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  They're all on drugs.

                                  I think the fact that Justin fucking Gatlin is about to win the blue riband event at the World Athletics championships will do more than enough to reopen this whole controversy.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    They're all on drugs.

                                    Cheating at the Olympics. The shock and outrage that courses through my veins, you could quite literally bottle it and then reinject it at a later date.

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      They're all on drugs.

                                      There are still people who believe Usain Bolt is the man, even though his best times piss all over those of Justin Gatlin, who in turn is today running faster times than he did when he was failing drug "tests".

                                      As for David Walsh, it was always a bit optimistic to expect a journalist who works for Rupert Murdoch to have anything remotely critical to say about a cycling team owned by Rupert Murdoch.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        They're all on drugs.

                                        International anti-doping expert and crusader disagrees with you, therefore is a priori corrupt. Jesus wept.

                                        Have you any evidence for Usain Bolt's cheating, beyond "he's fast, so he must be cheating"?

                                        Or for Froome's, besides "here's a photo illustrating a body-fat percentage typical of pro-cyclists"?

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          They're all on drugs.

                                          The Froome stuff at the Tour was all rather tiresome really. There's a lot of factors that come into play in the allegations being made, the fact that many people loathe Sky, that his team are utterly incapable of handling the media questions, that they need someone less bullish than Brailsford on media duties, the persistent "French riders aren't doing well, ergo everyone else is doping" subtext that often bobs up, the absence of anything actually approaching a contest for the lead at the time. Positions have become polarised, lots of heat is generated with very little light, and a lot of people choose to look at evidence as it suits them.

                                          Walsh was one of the first to call out Armstrong, he's not a full time cycling writer so could have chosen to go and spend his time writing about rugby or golf. Instead he's staked his reputation on Froome being clean and said so openly based on his observations. (Whether he would be quite so vocal in the pages of a Murdoch paper if he had suspicions is another matter) There are those who would have you believe this is all part of the elaborate web of conspiracy constructed by Sky.

                                          I'm not sure I'd necessarily want to share a pint with either of them, but I'd much prefer to do so with Walsh rather than Kimmage, who is a whinging shitbag. And who doped himself.

                                          Sky are midway through their sixth season, there's enough people to have left the team by now who could allege murky practices if they went on. A lot of the European media would probably lap it up if they could get any sort of sniff of such a story. Instead we're reduced to "Sky employ someone as warehouse manager who was at US Postal briefly"

                                          Based on everything I've seen and read, there's nothing currently in the public domain that classes as even circumstantial evidence that Froome is doping.

                                          What it does all mean is that it distracts people from looking at dubious performances in the Tour. The sport is not completely clean and there was one team (not Sky) who may as well have ridden round with a huge great sign on their backs saying "LOOK AT US WE'RE DOPING"

                                          Even today, Tom Danielson has been withdrawn from the Tour of Utah for failing an out of competition test. His "I would never do this" defence is rather undermined by him having done so before. And he tweeted about how much he loves the sport. They never forget to say that.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            They're all on drugs.

                                            Have you any evidence for Usain Bolt's cheating, beyond "he's fast, so he must be cheating"?
                                            There is no evidence that he has been cheating, no.

                                            We do know that testosterone and steroids can be used to build up muscle mass out of competition. The athletes can then show up at the competition and test negative, because the stuff will have passed through their system, but they will still have the benefits of increased muscle mass. There is the problem that Jamaica didn't bother to test their athletes at any time during the six months before the London Olympics. It is worrying, to say the least.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              They're all on drugs.

                                              longeared wrote: I'm not sure I'd necessarily want to share a pint with either of them, but I'd much prefer to do so with Walsh rather than Kimmage, who is a whinging shitbag. And who doped himself.
                                              Ha. That is one way of describing Kimmage. Personnaly I would go for 'boggle-eyed conspiracy theorist who struck lucky once'.
                                              I can sort of understand why he needs to believe the entire world is cheating at every sport, it makes his own experience easier to take, but he is so off-the-wall. His main modus operandi seems to be examining public statements for clues. This is utterly pointless. What dopers say will entirely mimic what non-dopers say, for blatantly obvious reasons.
                                              Ask a honest man if he is lying and he will say "Of course not"
                                              Ask a liar if he is lying and he will also say "Of course not"
                                              One would expect dopers to listen to the words of their clean colleagues and repeat these parrot fashion. To then base the accusation on 'Ah but he said this and Armstrong once said similar' is just nuts.
                                              The Tom Danielson stuff is a perfect example of the above.

                                              David Walsh's position that he has tried to investigate Team Sky, just like he did with Armstrong's old associates, but is not getting anything is a much more sensible one. He is looking for smoke in the right place, i.e. disgruntled ex-employees and teammates rather than using a words divining stick or by trying wacky science on scanty information that gives errors twice the size of the reading.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                They're all on drugs.

                                                Longeared, have you read Rough Ride?

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  They're all on drugs.

                                                  I have, although not for about 20 years and it was the original edition (it seems to get re-issued every few years with additional chapters)

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    They're all on drugs.

                                                    Then you'll know that Kimmage didn't dope in an attempt to gain an advantage.

                                                    Comment

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