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    Islamic State Watch

    Antonio Pulisao wrote:
    but flying through, rather than into.
    What does that mean?
    If you look at the map and route the jets flew according to Turkey the border juts down so it's through rather than into because the jets took a straightish line in Syria and encroached into Turkey.

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      Islamic State Watch

      That's also been a complaint made by Arabs (christian and muslim alike) in areas seized by Kurds. This has been happening in cities like Kirkuk in Iraq for a long time, now it's happening in eastern Syria.

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        Islamic State Watch

        This isn't going to help

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          Islamic State Watch

          So according to that map it was actually shot down over Syrian airspace, even if the missile may have been was fired when the plane passed over Turkey. These planes fly so fast and the piece of border jutting out so tiny that the pilots probably didn't have much idea that they were flying over Turkey. They were probably not overflying Turkey with intent; i.e. the Turks cannot really argue that the missile was fired to protect Turkish airspace from attack.

          More of a case of Erdogan looking for an excuse to shoot down the plane because it was attacking the Turkmen area.

          NATO may have backed Turkey officially, just as Ferguson always backed his players, but I'd say the Turks are getting the hair dryer treatment from NATO as we speak. US will probably cancel a few F-16 orders headed for Turkey.

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            Islamic State Watch

            Turkey has now released part of the warning given, the rescued Russian pilot has said there was no communication.

            What language would they be communicating in if there was any communication?

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              Islamic State Watch

              linus wrote: That's also been a complaint made by Arabs (christian and muslim alike) in areas seized by Kurds. This has been happening in cities like Kirkuk in Iraq for a long time, now it's happening in eastern Syria.
              This time the group that is being ethnically cleansed has a powerful backer and while I believe it is happening it's fitting conveniently into the narrative that Turkey wants to promote about the Kurds and generally challenges the western perception that we should be backing the Kurds.

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                Islamic State Watch

                Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote: Research Paper: ISIS-Turkey List
                Yeah. Really weak list of "things people have said against Turkey". Including Seymour Hersh's utter shit about Ghouta.

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                  Islamic State Watch

                  Well, I have tonight read the whole of this thread from start to finish and it has confused me even more than when I started. Not only that but, with Israel's backing and the ethnic cleansing, it has disabused me of my previous notion that the Kurds were approaching good guys.

                  Also, I realised that the Russian fighter being shot down by Turkey discussion was on here.

                  Depressing. I have no idea what I think should be done. Maybe more people should admit that around the world.

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                    Islamic State Watch

                    A clusterfuck of massive proportions.

                    Have you seen Adam Curtis' Bitter Lake? I think it's still on BBC iPlayer. Being Adam Curtis, he takes bloody ages to explain simple points, but worth watching anyway.

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                      Islamic State Watch

                      Antepli Ejderha wrote: What language would they be communicating in if there was any communication?
                      English, if I'm remembering correctly from my morning perusal of the BBC and Guardian news apps. One of them mentioned it, but I can't remember which.

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                        Islamic State Watch

                        Seems we're about to get into some kind of bombing in Syria, even though we don't seem to be sure who we're going to be bombing. Will it be the ones we wanted to bomb a couple of years ago or the other bunch?. Who are the other bunch now?. There seems like there's about five or six different sides right now. Who will we fighting alongside?. There's nothing approaching an agreed unified strategy among those who should be looking for one.

                        I suspect at some point Cameron or maybe even Osborne (by then) will claim some kind of moral victory and bugger off leaving it no better, ultimately, a lot worse, with a whole new set of problems.

                        Not a Corbyn liker particularly, but I suspect his current views on action in Syria are closer to mine than Cameron and other hawk's. If not the same journey he made to come to those views. Seems he's in a corner to give a free vote on action by his lack of strength within the PLP and the general implication that he has a unpatriotic commie outlook, which will makes him look bad in the eye of the public.

                        I sent off an email to my MP last night fwiw. I suggest those who are against reckless entry into this conflict think about doing the same. Better than nothing.

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                          Islamic State Watch

                          Being debated in the Commons now as the govt calls for bombing.

                          Here's The Morning Star's view. Interesting read. As well as mentioning the morality of bombing Raqqa, "a city of half a million people" it mentions how bombing without ground troops never achieves anything, and only brings chaos and in all probability would increase ISIS recruitment. And, on the fighting factions:

                          Kurds are best placed to liberate Isis-held areas along the Turkish border, but Ankara has, despite joining in the anti-Isis clamour, threatened military intervention against YPG if its fighters cross the Euphrates to link up with the Kurdish Afrin enclave to drive Isis out of Jarablus.
                          Turkey’s clear preference for Isis over Kurdish forces mirrors the collaboration of key Western allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab states with the extremist organisations intent on dismembering the Syrian state.
                          The Syrian army, which reflects the national and religious make-up of the country is most capable, with its Russian, Lebanese Hezbollah and Iranian supporters, of defeating Isis.
                          It is, as President Assad said at the weekend, advancing on almost all fronts.
                          That should gladden the hearts of all who wish to see a united secular Syria, but our government remains intent on a bombing campaign that lacks a coherent political goal.
                          Opposition MPs should not encourage Cameron and Fallon in their proposed short-sighted bombing spree that will surely backfire on the people of Britain.
                          Indeed, while Cameron has said that he feels London is an obvious target and he wants to strike to help make us safer (!!), Corbyn has asked the question whether bombing would make us more or less safe.

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                            Islamic State Watch

                            The Morning Star article makes a very good and timely point about the morality and usefulness of the air bombing campaign on Raqqa. In order to avenge the deaths in Paris, we're going to kill far more people in Syria through indiscriminate air bombings and make their already difficult life even more miserable by bombing their remaining infrastructure.

                            This being said, the article is wrong on two points it raised. The Kurds are actually the force that is most intent on "dismembering the Syrian state". They have carved up a de-facto Kurdistan in Iraq and are pushing for a greater Kurdistan extending into northwestern Syria, including large areas and cities in eastern Syria where they are a minority, and where they have shown a pattern of ethnic cleansing.

                            Second, the Syrian army does not reflect the country's cultural and religious makeup, it has largely become an Alawite militia, backed by Hezbollah and Russian air power, and it has been responsible for most of the quarter million civilian deaths to date due to large-scale air bombing campaigns in large cities like Homs and Aleppo. This is a consequence of colonial policy under the French mandate between the world wars, where Syria was divided along ethnic lines and Alawites were given preference in a classic divide and conquer colonial rule pattern.

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                              Islamic State Watch

                              That Morning Star article is disgusting. No surprise, but still hideous.

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                                Islamic State Watch

                                Cameron's 70,000 are "principally" who he said they were, it seems.

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                                  Islamic State Watch

                                  A Syrian government minister said on the Radio 4 today, "Why is Assad the bad guy for the West? He is a democratically elected president. What about Saudi Arabia and Qatar who are the West's allies?"

                                  Now, we are sophisticated readers of the Middle East situation but you can see his point. Even if we say 'human rights abuses', we haven't got a foot to stand on with regard Saudi Arabia apart from quantity.

                                  Don't get me wrong, he is talking shit but you can see how this shit would work in certain constituencies.

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                                    Islamic State Watch

                                    Hypocrits are very good at spotting hypocrisy.

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                                      Islamic State Watch

                                      David fucking Aaronovitch.

                                      https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/670140459541508096

                                      (Scroll upwards to see more of the exchange, thanks to Twitter's shit formatting.)

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                                        Islamic State Watch

                                        Green Calx wrote: David fucking Aaronovitch.

                                        https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/670140459541508096

                                        (Scroll upwards to see more of the exchange, thanks to Twitter's shit formatting.)
                                        Aaro's been on scintillating twitter form these last 24 hours along with the other decents. Hassan invoking the JIC's 2003 warning to Blair that an Iraq War would increase domestic threat is intellectual bad faith apparently.

                                        And his comparison of Corbyn and McDonell to Robespierre and Diane Abott to Madame Defarge is an ahistorical doozy. If Aaro, Nick, Dan, Rentoul et al love war so much, why don't they go and live there?

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                                          Islamic State Watch

                                          Interesting news coming out of Moscow is that they have informed the USA of their flights across Syria leading some to suggest that not only did the USA share this with Turkey but that Turkey new beforehand where the planes would be and therefore it was a premeditated attack.

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                                            Islamic State Watch

                                            This Aaronovitch guy, he has his University Challenge appearance as his Twitter background. That is all I have to say about him.

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                                              Islamic State Watch

                                              Is making judgements on people based upon their Twitter backgrounds a contemporary update on reading their tea leaves or doing their tarot cards?

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                                                Islamic State Watch

                                                I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Russians and the US have exchanged general information about their flyover operations. I would, however, be quite surprised if they shared detailed telemetry that could provide significant insights into the planes' performance.

                                                I thought that this piece from the Guardian made a strong case that the Turks were itching for the opportunity to make a statement following a Russian foot fault. He's also right about the strong similarities between Putin and Erdogan.

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                                                  Islamic State Watch

                                                  dalliance wrote: Is making judgements on people based upon their Twitter backgrounds a contemporary update on reading their tea leaves or doing their tarot cards?
                                                  No.

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                                                    Islamic State Watch

                                                    A letter from Syria Solidarity to Cameron.

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