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Pound-for-pound, dollar-for-dollar: Boxing

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    Heard an interview with Toney earlier today. Unfortunately, what McRae says about his slurred speech is reasonably accurate...

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      Katie Taylor defeats McCaskill in her first title defence.

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        Im not sure if the admirable Mr. Parker is quite big enough to bring Anthony Joshua down. But I can't help thinking there's a Tim Witherspoon waiting to happen to Joshua.

        He's a very fine and committed boxer, and a good, honest bloke trying to live up to an unbelievable hype, but heavyweight boxing is a hugely unpredictable game and there's a touch of the vulnerable Bruno about him.

        I can't quite see who would beat him apart from a very switched on Fury.

        But I can think of at least 10 flabby, desperate 70s blokes who might eventually catch up with him after 10 or so rounds.

        I wish him well, because he has so much hype to live up to.

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          Can people please stop talking about Fury as if he’ll ever be a boxer again? Not that he was much of one before he was caught doping and took up professional binge-eating?

          I agree Joshua be caught out by the right opponent and I wouldn’t totally rule out Parker surprising him...and everyone else.

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            On the undercard, David Price knocked out with pretty sickening effect in the fifth by a brutal combination from Alexander Povetkin. He was put out on his feet by a right and didn’t know where he was when a left uppercut connected clean on his chin. Glad to see him up and walking around afterwards but he shouldn’t box again.

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              Dull, scrappy fight, not sure either fighter did enough to warrant taking a belt off the other.

              Sky having a go at the referee for pulling the fighters apart too much, how about criticising the boxers for holding all the time.

              Joshua waaaaaaaaay too smug in his post-fight interview.

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                Originally posted by MrLeam View Post
                Heard an interview with Toney earlier today. Unfortunately, what McRae says about his slurred speech is reasonably accurate...
                Just seen this. Top boxer but extended his career far too long. 92 professional fights, 29 years, several all-time great opponents. OTOH the damage may already have been done by the time he turned pro.

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                  Eamonn Magee: ‘Dad convinced the IRA to give me only one bullet’

                  https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...y_to_clipboard

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                    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a8183546.html

                    A really tragic piece on my first boxing hero, Herol Bomber Graham.

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                      GGG - Canelo II tonight. I haven't read many predictions. Canelo has been away after the injury and drug test violation. GGG hasn't looked like the world beater he was. LA Times has GGG winning by split decision, setting up a third fight. I think Canelo will win this one. There will be a third fight but GGG is getting older. I think the first fight between these two needed to happen a couple years back. Either way, I will hopefully be watching tonight vis other means than watching someone streaming: TV > phone > twitter > my phone.

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                        I enjoyed this long read on Mexican support for GGG

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                          I appear to be awake and the fight should be in a little over an hour so I reckon I’m watching it, despite my annoyance at the result (as opposed to the fight) last time and my certainty that a third fight will be engineered somehow.
                          Last edited by Ray de Galles; 16-09-2018, 01:50.

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                            Crooked and corrupt, I shouldn’t be surprised any more.

                            Boxing is killing itself.
                            Last edited by Ray de Galles; 16-09-2018, 04:21.

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                              Great fight, and I don't think the verdict is too unlikely, even though no right-thinking person would want an Alvarez win because of the doping.

                              Although the punch stats are in Golovkin's favour, they don't tell you enough about the fight. In the first one, Alvarez was entirely counterpunching and hardly jabbing at all, whereas Golovkin hardly through any body shots. Likewise here.

                              The consensus was that most of the rounds were very close, and with that the case, there's a narrative you can follow that would award more points to Alvarez. He was dominating the centre of the ring for much of the fight, completely different from fight number one. Golovkin was landing lots of punches, but looked like he's been put him off his game, and was getting increasingly tired and even ragged into the middle of the fight. Golovkin's corner were constantly telling him he needed to get forward more. Early on in the fight I was wondering how Golovkin could win, as nothing he was trying seemed to come off. If you take the view that the most improved fighter would win the second fight, that was surely Alvarez. He completely stepped up his game.

                              So I can see how many of the early rounds would go to Alvarez. Meanwhile there is an contrasting reason why many people would have scored rounds for Golovkin - simply because he's the favourite, he's more orthodox, he scored more punches, and people like to back a winner.

                              What is disturbing is that some judges voted mysteriously the final round for Alvarez – it looked to me and seemingly a bunch of commentators that the final three rounds were all Golovkin. The suspicion is that, realising that could have made it another draw, they gave it to Alvarez.

                              Just listening back to the commentary repeat on 5Live now, while there was a lot of disbelief from various talking heads that Alvarez won, at the time during the fight itself they all observed it was really close.

                              The sad thing of course is that Golovkin had a mystifying decision in the first fight also – the actual result, a draw, was feasible, but that one scorecard heavily in favour of Alvarez completely inexplicable. And he showed incredible bravery and resources taking the fight to Alvarez in the second half of the fight, against the odds as far as I'm concerned.

                              Anyone know why all the judges were from the USA, is that normal?
                              Last edited by diggedy derek; 16-09-2018, 09:08.

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                                I agree that the first fight was won by GGG. Of course Bird's (Byrd's) scorecard was insane in that first fight. This time around, the fight was much closer and I could see it going either way. I think GGG was much more active throughout the fight but Canelo's punches seemed to be more powerful. So for me it was a question of whether or not the judges were going to award based on punches landed or punches that could make a difference.

                                I don't agree, dd, about that last round. I think Canelo controlled the round early on and then GGG came on. Even GGG's trainer thinks the fight was lost in that last round (well, given the scorecards it's clear that a single round had a huge impact on the final score). It seems that most of the judges in these fights come from the country where the fight happens, but I can't say that I have paid close attention to these things. I know that many GGG fans were posting on twitter that having this fight in Las Vegas meant GGG was going to need to knock out Canelo or win very big for GGG to get a win. The feeling was that the judges will cater to de la Hoya (Canelo's promoter). Of course, other than that Bird tally in the first fight, it seems to me that the amount of drama surrounding points doesn't equate with the judging itself. That is, just like in football, fans are more interested in blaming the judges (or the referee in football) than focusing on what their fighter (or team) did or didn't do. My sense is that GGG has lost some of his punching power or that Canelo's defense works to limit GGG's power.

                                On the whole, this was a much better fight. As dd mentioned, Canelo staying off the ropes meant both fighters fought. A third fight will be interesting but GGG's age when that fight happens has me less convinced that the fight will be as exciting. Any fight fan knows, though, that GGG won that first fight. This second one could have gone either way. I think the result was fair. So it's 1-1 even if that's not what the record books show.

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                                  I think the fact that you two disagree so markedly about the final round (I happen to agree with danielmak that it was one that Canelo clearly won) shows the iniquity of debating judge’s decisions but, even allowing for that, GGG clearly won the fight.

                                  I would have scored it 8-4 in rounds, the BT team ringside did the same live as did the HBO team I believe. The most charitable reading to Canelo was a 7-5 defeat. Apart from a few early rounds and the final one, GGG’s punching dominated the fight. Unfortunately, as danielmak alludes to, you normally have to knock out a Golden Boy promoted fighter to win one of their events in Vegas (and the next one could be in Mexico!).

                                  I don’t know if you both saw the fight live but there is always a tendency to retrofit opinions post-fight to seek evidence to support some of these farcical, crooked decisions - especially from pundits who have a vested interest personally and on behalf of the broadcasters who buy the rights to make the decisions and wider sport seem credible.

                                  Even a lot of impartial fans may watch the tape looking for the good things Canelo has done to justify giving him the bout with the foreknowledge that he was awarded it. He didn’t do enough here, there is no way he has earned those belts. GGG has beaten him twice now and his perfect record has been lost due to events outside the ring.
                                  Last edited by Ray de Galles; 17-09-2018, 16:14.

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                                    Yeah, I watched the fight live. Agree about rationalising afterwards in general, though – which is why social media is so tedious after fights. It's interesting on the 5Live boxing podcast that Steve Bunce, David Haye and one other guy at BT were scoring it live, and out of those three, who were doing it separately, there were all three results.

                                    Oh well. Joshua Povetkin at the weekend. You can get 8-1 on Povetkin winning, which is pretty long for a boxer with a very long and very solid record. Not sure he's too old yet, either.

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                                      I’m going to the fight and think Povetkin certainly has a chance. That vicious clubbing KO of David Price on the undercard for Joshua’s Cardiff fight against Joseph Parker earlier in the year should act as a warning.

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                                        I've got a sneaky feeling about Povetkin too. The only person who had the real ability to hurt Joshua put him down. Yes he came back incredibly bravely but he's far from invulnerable.

                                        I think he'll be in and around the top for a long time, but he'll win some and lose some, and certainly won't dominate the division for years.

                                        I also think the cagey style he showed against Parker might be here to stay. There's simply too much to lose now. I don't think this is in Joshua's nature, he's a naturally exciting fighter. But a lot of people surrounding him don't want to kill the golden goose.

                                        On the other hand, he may turn in a devastating display and blast Povetkin away, and I'll look a complete fool. But 8-1 against a proven banger is very tempting.

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                                          Sorry, was caught up with some other stuff. I watched the fight live but watched on BeIN MENA so had Arabic commentary. I don't speak Arabic so I have no idea how they were assessing the fight as the fight was unfolding. I was also participating in twitter streams during the fight and watched those streams for a few minutes after. If I have time, I will watch the HBO re-broadcast that happens this weekend (usually HBO in the US shows pay per view on 7-day delay).

                                          I won't have time now but later tonight will need to see if they have the compubox (or whatever it is called) stats. I'd like to see if the stats reflect my view of the fight: GGG with more punches thrown, Canelo with more power punches, and percentage of punches landed being about equal.

                                          If a third fight happens in Mexico, GGG would absolutely need a knockout.

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                                            The Compubox stats did the rounds quite soon after the fight.

                                            They didn’t change my mind and I don’t really rate them as a way of assessing an overall fight, here’s one explanation why.

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                                              Interesting piece about compubox. I assume that system has or will be more sophisticated as we have seen with opta in football and statcast for baseball. But it's hard to say if that system will ever link to the ways judges score the rounds. I wouldn't say the compubox stats for this fight change my mind either but do confirm what I saw. I think the other areas of scoring described in that article make it even harder to tease out a winner in that Canelo-GGG fight in that I can't say that either fighter really controlled the fight (as GGG did in the first fight), Canelo's defense was probably more impressive (I'd say that based on what I saw but compubox does help if we consider punches thrown but then rely on eyesight to consider punches landed).

                                              Anyway, I was watching a lot more boxing when this thread started a few years back. In part that was because GGG, Canelo, and Cotto were all at the top of their game. The weight class is generally exciting because of the skill/power mix. Cotto fell quick (although he was much older), GGG has aged waiting to fight Canelo, and Canelo's star has lost some shine with a screwy result and a positive steroid test.

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                                                Thanks for that re: Compubox, that is excellent. It's surely not too far away that you could have several cameras and computers a big fight, with Hawkeye type technology, and actually some solid information about whether a punch connected, whether it was clean, etc etc. Although we're a long way off being able to assess who's winning with any sort of objectivity.

                                                I imagine Joshua will try and stay behind his jab, as that's how Povetkin was beaten for the only time, against Klitschko, who just hit him at will (when he wasn't clinching), with the result that it was obvious from the second round which way the result would go. Povetkin kept coming forward, though.

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                                                  We had a fight there, then, boof!

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                                                    Joshua looked sluggish, and then, what killer instinct.

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