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    #51
    Renée Zellweger's face

    You're trying to have a different argument. I've never said that a man simply finding a woman attractive is demeaning, or vice versa.

    Men feeling entitled to pass comment on it is another matter, but part of a wider issue which I haven't invented just to annoy you.

    Edit: as with the "patriarchy" thread, I would have thought these things so elementary as to not need stating here.

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      #52
      Renée Zellweger's face

      Stumpy Pepys wrote:
      Originally posted by Bored of Education
      Obviously, it isn't just a female thing but I still haven't seen a man in their 40s who has done a Zellweger.
      See, he has had some serious work done - possibly by Madame Tussauds - but I can tell that it's Shane Warne. I've just never seen surgery where somebody looks like a different person. Not Michael Jackson-style, not even plastic surgery-style, the work that Renee Zellweger has had done is something else entirely.

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        #53
        Renée Zellweger's face

        It's that side I'm interested in, what it tells us about contemporary media and identity etc and I knew we'd get good debate about it on WSC, hence the thread.
        Seriously? I assumed that you'd started it just to have a quick rant, with nary a care as to whether or how the thread might pick up.

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          #54
          Renée Zellweger's face

          Most of the cosmetic surgery done on men and women is "corrective" or "restorative", aimed at making them look like younger versions of themselves (fixing eyelid and jowl droop), so is barely detectable when done well.

          More drastic surgery is aimed at making aesthetic improvements to what nature gave you e.g nose jobs.

          Sometimes the former (corrective) surgery ends up having more drastic effect than intended.

          I wouldn't pass judgement either way. People in the public eye have subtle surgery quite routinely, and it's seldom picked up on. instead, the Daily Mail will comment approvingly on how someone has opted for daily workouts and a healthy lifestyle, and so miraculously lost the haggard look that was caused by having too much fun.

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            #55
            Renée Zellweger's face

            Stumpy Pepys wrote:
            Originally posted by Vicarious Thrillseeker
            That was Willie Nelson, not Kenny Rogers.
            No, it's Kenny Rogers.
            No - Willie Nelson definitely sang 'Crazy'.

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              #56
              Renée Zellweger's face

              Andy Townsends Tactics Truck wrote: See, he has had some serious work done - possibly by Madame Tussauds - but I can tell that it's Shane Warne.
              Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally think Warney was the subject of a Pygmalion-style bet, where someone wagered he could turn a tubby beer'n'pies Victorian bloke into a bizarre meterosexual.

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                #57
                Renée Zellweger's face

                I legitimately had no interest whatsoever in the state of Renee Zellwegger's face until a few minutes ago, as the news of her drastically updated appearance had unaccountably passed me by. Then I went thread-surfing in the OTF 'Most Recent' discussions just now and got hooked by Geoffrey's intriguingly self-contradictory opening post. Gosh, that is an awful transformation to witness — as others have said, she doesn't look unattractive, yet if I hadn't known I could have stared for an hour and not worked out who I was looking at; it's hard to put a finger on what it is exactly about those eyes, but they're definitely different. It's sad that spmeone who had what was both a pretty and distinctive face felt she had to take this route to keep up with the Joneses (er, no Bridget pun intended), and that she's ended up with an unrecognisably generic off-the-peg Hollywood visage. The Metro article linked upthread with its 'slider' pictures is particularly startling.

                There's something there I couldn't avoid seeing that's a little telling, with ties to the gender and age politics debate here. Scroll down to the bottom of that article and you find a link to another Metro piece: 'Mel B's hideous dress reigns over all other terrible MOBO outfits', in which a columnist falls over herself to verbally assassinate Mel's "tragic" "atrocity" of an outfit worn while hosting the MOBO awards (which can have been only one of at least two she wore, as I caught the last few minutes on TV and she was wearing something else) last night. The phrase "OK, so the 39-year-old TV judge is in fab shape for her age" is particularly galling: she looks in fab shape for ANY age. Actually, no, the most galling thing is that the attack is merely an opening for the writer to turn her fire on Tulisa Contostavlos, whose fashion "failures" are apparently so crushingly inevitable there is a picture captioned Tulisa never fails to disappoint — yet still such is the alleged eyewatering offensiveness of last night's ensemble the writer is actually rendered speechless. OK, so the skirt and shoes are a little outré, but so what; and the 'journalist' even burbles "That hair..." — what the flying heck is wrong with her hair??

                These poisonous assaults are just everywhere you click, and the number of these things written by women is especially high from what I can see; one female commenter below it exasperatedly sighs "so much for the sisterhood", essentially. That same article is also one of those thousand-headed hydras that seem to be taking over the web now, especially on any subject pertaining to entertainment and celebrity. If you're not careful and click on one of the umpteen articles linked off it, these will link to scores more, both within that site and out to others still more venal and pointless, ranging from the just-plain-bollocks ('Crabzilla' at Whitstable) to the inexplicable ('Is It Rude To Sharpen Your Friends' Knives?') — and among them I glimpsed one (which I've mercifully now lost sight of again) shouting of 'X number of celebrities who are aging badly', with a sub-tagline mentioning two or three who can't be over 30 and lastly "the Jenners", who I believe are the youngest(?) of the Kardashian clan and can't be out of their teens. For crying out loud.
                It does make you realise a little, for anybody in the public eye this stuff is so omnipresent it must be suffocating if you start to take notice of it. To be fair to Ms Zellwegger in that context, there would be myriad articles (like that last-noted above, I don't doubt) screaming about her temerity to have wrinkles or saggy bits, had she permitted herself any of those instead of taking the opposite path, which is an equally sad state of affairs.

                And to my further sadness, I've just learnt from one of those headlines buried almost unnoticeably in among this tripe, Alvin Stardust has died. That's no way to find out.

                Comment


                  #58
                  Renée Zellweger's face

                  Shane Warne now looks more like Dr Christian off Embarrassing Bodies than his old self.

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                    #59
                    Renée Zellweger's face

                    MsD wrote: There is nothing like equivalence in women's appraisal of men versus men's appraisal of women.

                    It may be "primal" in origin, but we're a long way from the jungle or whatever now, still this judgement of women's looks runs throughout culture and is used as a tool of control.
                    But what about women's appraisal of women?

                    As VA alludes to above, the people who go to Mail Online and scroll down the Sidebar of Shame are predominantly women, reading judgmental articles about other women, no doubt written by women.

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                      #60
                      Renée Zellweger's face

                      MsD wrote: do you think the self-policing has an element of proxy?
                      Yes I do. Proxy for what/whom, though? Where do The Rules Of Femininity come from, and whose interests do they support?

                      It's tempting either to blame women themselves for being duped into policing their own subordination (as a couple of the comments just above this one do), or to blame a comfortable abstraction like 'patriarchy'. In fact I think it's impossible to get our heads around how vast and diffuse are the interests invested in the production of certain types of feminine bodies — and, by extension, in the stigmatisation of others that are hairy, wobbly, wrinkly, stinky, incomplete, mutilated, dysfunctional, etc.

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                        #61
                        Renée Zellweger's face

                        Quite. It's very complex and so much of this goes on at a subliminal level. It seems to be serving a societal purpose, though, not a biological one, and I certainly don't think it's innate or primal.

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                          #62
                          Renée Zellweger's face

                          To answer VA's point, the Mail is notorious for featuring women journalists hating on women who step out of line, and that kind of thing can be found elsewhere, but it certainly isn't "everywhere". It's a fairly compartmentalised media form.

                          In "celeb" magazines like Heat, the point seems to be making women feel better about their own insecurities and imperfections (by showing "celebs" struggling with physical imperfection), while reinforcing them.

                          Like laverte, I haven't worked out who, exactly, is served by this.

                          Women's time gets sucked up by concerns about appearances, that inevitably takes time away from other things. It hampers our ability to perform, to express, to be spontaneous.

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                            #63
                            Renée Zellweger's face

                            MsD wrote: To answer VA's point, the Mail is notorious for featuring women journalists hating on women who step out of line, and that kind of thing can be found elsewhere, but it certainly isn't "everywhere". It's a fairly compartmentalised media form.
                            It's also the most visited English-language newspaper website in the world. And it's not my male friends who are particularly interested in Fearne Cotton's bikini body.

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                              #64
                              Renée Zellweger's face

                              I think you may be overestimating the number of women who subscribe to that sort of thing. I visit the Mail's website a few times a week, I may even be interested in seeing Fearne's bikini body now you mention it, doesn't mean I go along with their approach, far from it.

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                                #65
                                Renée Zellweger's face

                                It does make you realise a little, for anybody in the public eye this stuff is so omnipresent it must be suffocating if you start to take notice of it. To be fair to Ms Zellwegger in that context, there would be myriad articles (like that last-noted above, I don't doubt) screaming about her temerity to have wrinkles or saggy bits, had she permitted herself any of those instead of taking the opposite path, which is an equally sad state of affairs.
                                I'll admit I've not seen the Bridget Jones films (they're not really for me), but wasn't having 'wrinkles or saggy bits' something that was supposedly celebrated by the character? If so, that suggests there'd be an obvious flaw in any crappy tabloid assassination of that nature about Renée Zellweger.

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                                  #66
                                  Renée Zellweger's face

                                  Yeah, I think the "ooh, look how she's got fat" is aimed at an audience of spiteful women. And the "look how she lost weight" - in fitness magazines, especially - is aimed at women who are aspiring to also lose weight, perhaps in an unhealthy way. Either way, those are aimed at women.

                                  Because if men want to look at fit young women in swimsuits, there's always a lot of athletic girls and young women waiting in line to get their picture taken or to become NFL cheerleaders and get paid dirt to dance in a very skimpy costume. It's considered a huge "honor."

                                  Some men do develop elaborate fantasies about particular celebrities, but most men who want to lear at women's bodies aren't fussy about which woman it is.

                                  Insofar as men do really want to see particular celebs naked - especially against their consent - it is, I'm afraid, about feeling powerful over them, because financially successful beautiful women scare a lot of men and they can't deal with that. That's f'd up.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Renée Zellweger's face

                                    Jah Womble wrote:
                                    It does make you realise a little, for anybody in the public eye this stuff is so omnipresent it must be suffocating if you start to take notice of it. To be fair to Ms Zellwegger in that context, there would be myriad articles (like that last-noted above, I don't doubt) screaming about her temerity to have wrinkles or saggy bits, had she permitted herself any of those instead of taking the opposite path, which is an equally sad state of affairs.
                                    I'll admit I've not seen the Bridget Jones films (they're not really for me), but wasn't having 'wrinkles or saggy bits' something that was supposedly celebrated by the character? If so, that suggests there'd be an obvious flaw in any crappy tabloid assassination of that nature about Renée Zellweger.
                                    No, BJ was all about self-loathing, beating herself up for having a huge arse (which she didn't) etc. I hate that aspect of it, and the spinster=lonely=failure crap, but the films are surprisingly funny in places and Ms Z is lovely.

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      Renée Zellweger's face

                                      MsD wrote: I think you may be overestimating the number of women who subscribe to that sort of thing. I visit the Mail's website a few times a week, I may even be interested in seeing Fearne's bikini body now you mention it, doesn't mean I go along with their approach, far from it.
                                      I don't need to overestimate it—they publish their demographics.

                                      1,265,000 unique female visitors per day (UK).

                                      Overall monthly worldwide visitors are 56.1 million per month (male and female).

                                      How many of these feel guilty about reading it, I don't know.

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        Renée Zellweger's face

                                        No, BJ was all about self-loathing, beating herself up for having a huge arse (which she didn't) etc. I hate that aspect of it, and the spinster=lonely=failure crap, but the films are surprisingly funny in places and Ms Z is lovely.
                                        Fair enough, my bad. I have it on good authority that the first one was pretty funny, yes.

                                        What I've seen of her elsewhere, RZ comes across as very charming, well-liked and really not the person of whom you'd expect this kind of 'move'. Therefore I'd hope that a large percentage of the attention its receiving is down to this kind of concern, as opposed to mere voyeurism. But that's probably a bit naive of me.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Renée Zellweger's face

                                          Stumpy Pepys wrote:
                                          Originally posted by MsD
                                          I think you may be overestimating the number of women who subscribe to that sort of thing. I visit the Mail's website a few times a week, I may even be interested in seeing Fearne's bikini body now you mention it, doesn't mean I go along with their approach, far from it.
                                          I don't need to overestimate it—they publish their demographics.

                                          1,265,000 unique female visitors per day (UK).

                                          Overall monthly worldwide visitors are 56.1 million per month (male and female).

                                          How many of these feel guilty about reading it, I don't know.
                                          I meant "subscribe to that view". I don't feel "guilty" reading it, but nor do I share the view that women look bad if they don't conform to a certain standard. I might look at a picture of Tulisa, for example, and think "she looks nice", regardless of what the Mail say about her.

                                          I really don't think the majority of women who click on the Mail read every word and think "Yes! Nail that fat bitch!".

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Renée Zellweger's face

                                            Yes, and my 'cute' remark notwithstanding, it's not voyeurism either. I'm genuinely curious as to why she felt the need to [strike]get plastic surgery [/strike]live a healthier, happier life. What did she think 'we' thought of her? What did she think of herself?

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Renée Zellweger's face

                                              One thing I seem to remember is RZ commenting at the time how good it felt to embrace having put on a bit of weight for the part (although, as MsD says, she was still far from what most people would call 'chubby' or huge-arsed), liking having extra curves etc and not having to conform to the standard Hollywood tyranny on these things. Which doesn't seem like the kind of person who'd throw herself into plastic surgery a few years down the line. Mind you, thinking further, I also seem to recall people calling her out on having expressed those sentiments when she almost instantly dropped all the weight again as soon as filming finished to conform once more with the standard Hollywood etc etc.
                                              MsD wrote: In "celeb" magazines like Heat, the point seems to be making women feel better about their own insecurities and imperfections (by showing "celebs" struggling with physical imperfection), while reinforcing them.
                                              Like laverte, I haven't worked out who, exactly, is served by this.
                                              This is the thing that baffles me too — it doesn't seem to serve anyone, does it? I catch a glimpse of what's on the front covers of magazines of that ilk in newsagents' racks and it just repels me. Is this a male or female editorial team, out of interest (if that's the right word), do we know? I've no desire to add fuel to the gender-debate fires here but I honestly have no clue.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Renée Zellweger's face

                                                Velvet Android wrote: I catch a glimpse of what's on the front covers of magazines of that ilk in newsagents' racks and it just repels me. Is this a male or female editorial team, out of interest (if that's the right word), do we know?
                                                I found myself freelancing on women's mags a few years ago (needed the cash and I had some contacts).

                                                Yeah, the editorial staff are predominantly female, along with a few gay men. The only straight, male staff were subs and designers.

                                                Having said that, they were mostly very nice and friendly.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Renée Zellweger's face

                                                  WOM wrote: Yes, and my 'cute' remark notwithstanding, it's not voyeurism either. I'm genuinely curious as to why she felt the need to [strike]get plastic surgery [/strike]live a healthier, happier life. What did she think 'we' thought of her? What did she think of herself?
                                                  Perhaps it's nothing to do with us.

                                                  Perhaps we can assume that she's intelligent and capable of making decisions, and she decided this is what she wanted.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Renée Zellweger's face

                                                    ^ Well, that's the bottom line, it's true.

                                                    Thanks for the enlightenment by the way, Stumpy.

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