Final recollections

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

I've just re-watched that Germany 7-1 Brazil semi-final on youtube and it is still one of the most jaw-dropping games of football I've ever seen, because of the anticipated result/actual result outcome.

[Satchmo Distel]

Final recollections

Brazil didn't look shellshocked until Germany score their 2nd. Up to that point it still looked like a game that was within the bounds of normality, although there were signs of things to come in how much space Brazil were giving Germany in the left back area.

I was going to start a thread on weakest ever semi-finalists, at least since 1945. I think South Korea and Turkey must still hold that honour from 2002 but would Brazil 2014 then be next up?

On other matters:

1) Were the last 16 the best 16?

2) Were the bottom teams in the 8 groups actually the 8 worst sides (thus including England)?

3) Would Brazil have gone out earlier if they'd been in one of the other quarters (to, say, France, Mexico or Belgium?). Although Chile and Colombia were excellent until they met Brazil I think they played the shirts rather than the men, whereas another side might have had Germany's self-belief that Brazil were there to be taken.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Final recollections

I think we'll remember 2014 as a vintage World Cup, with that semi-final the abiding memory. The group stage had all the required elements, with a proper group of death (G), favourites tumbling out (Spain and Italy, and, I'd argue, the Ivory Coast), wins for minnows (Costa Rica and Algeria), and the odd "did you see that?!" moment (Van Persie's goal against Spain, eg).

The knockout stages ran the risk of being dull by comparison, but as I said that 7-1 didn't just tip the table over on that, it picked it up and threw it through a window. And the final, while no 1986, was far from the dullest I've ever seen, certainly better than the 1990 one between the same teams.

[Borracho]

Final recollections

Most people expected Germany to beat Brazil fairly easily. Though not 7-1 easily.

It was a decent tournament but not amazing. The quarter-finals were all appalling except for Brazil-Colombia, which had some twisted appeal as a bad-tempered hacking fest but wasn't much of a football match.

[Wouter D]

Final recollections

It did feature an amazing instance of extra time in the round of 16. These 30 additional minutes of Belgium-USA were hair-raisingly memorable.

[Wouter D]

Final recollections

And, to answer Satchmo's questions:

1) Generally yes. I might substitute Bosnia-Hercegovina or Portugal for Greece, but that's about it.

2) Australia and Ghana both seemed better than Russia, but otherwise yes.

3) Absolutely. Any non-CONMEBOL team would have had a very decent chance of eliminating Brazil. In fact, if Mexico would have converted one of their bazillion opportunities against Brazil in the group phase, then Brazil would have gone out in the round of 16 against the Netherlands.

[Sits]

Final recollections

My memory fades quickly, but I could summarise it thus:

First game - oh my God what a start!

Rest of the groups - generally great fun

R16 / QF - very heavy going, endangering the overall standard of the tournament

SF - forgotten the other one almost completely, but I will always remember where I was, and how I felt, as the 1-7 unfolded.

Final - yeah good I think. The right result.

That's about it. Which isn't bad all in all.

[Sam]

Final recollections

satchmo76 wrote: Would Brazil have gone out earlier if they'd been in one of the other quarters (to, say, France, Mexico or Belgium?). Although Chile and Colombia were excellent until they met Brazil I think they played the shirts rather than the men, whereas another side might have had Germany's self-belief that Brazil were there to be taken.

It's a cliché to say it, but any South American side other than Argentina and Uruguay were going to give Brazil too much respect when they met them. I said before the tournament that Chile had a better team than Brazil, but would go out if they played them because when those sides meet in a meaningful game, Brazil always win 3-0.

Admittedly, it ended up being much closer than that. But the fact that Pinilla went and got a tattoo of his shot against the crossbar - 'I'm so proud of being the man who almost put them out!' - serves to illustrate my point there, I think.

[garcia]

Final recollections

i was at the tournament so i missed quite a few games what with travelling around and so on. for instance i missed all the matches in group B (colombia, ivory coast, japan, greece).

altogether i went to 12...

brazil-croatia

a brilliant goal by neymar under those big weird white stands. the whole thing still had a sense of unreality at that stage.

england-italy

an outstanding performance from kop idol balotelli. actually no, as usual he didn't do a lot. pirlo's dummy and rooney's left-footed cross are the main memories. that and the sweat pouring from my head onto my laptop.

germany-portugal

pepe fucked this one up for everyone. a non-event. most memorable moment was actually a couple of hours after the game when i saw ronaldo passing through salvador airport. the (mainly mexican) crowd in the terminal recorded him with their phones with one hand while banging on the plastic wall separating them from him with the other, and chanting about how much they loved messi. they were like the chinese kids tormenting the monkeys in the shanghai zoo.

brazil-mexico

amazing atmosphere created by the mexican fans.

germany-ghana

afterwards, i thought this would be the most exciting game i got to see. i was also pretty sceptical about germany's chances of winning. but it turned out that no other team were able to get at them like ghana. algeria, france and argentina also managed to contain their attack for the most part, but couldn't take their chances the way ghana did.

italy-uruguay

oh luis. but even before that moment the match had been a celebration of the evil side of football. chiellini is one of the great italian defensive cunts. i saw him up close in the mixed zone afterwards and he looks like a cartoon prizefighter.

germany-USA

chiefly memorable for the journey to the stadium through the flooded sprawl of recife. USA remind me of ireland; technically they don't look like they belong at this level and their fans only know two songs. they are physically stronger and less spineless than ireland however.

costa rica-greece

a pretty boring game and an incredibly annoying late equaliser for the greeks. bryan ruiz was a yellow-pack zidane

argentina-switzerland

a weird performance from messi in which he barely moved yet was at the centre of all the best moments of the game. genius to set up the winner. i also remember hearing some swiss journalists moaning about how they had played afterwards. that amazed me because the swiss midfielders had fought so hard.

france-germany

france turn out to be as spineless as ireland. benzema shows himself to be a rich man's shane long. i still thought germany looked a bit flimsy.

germany-brazil

so this was the most amazing match i've ever seen. not so much for what happened on the pitch, which itself was astonishing, as what was happening in the stands. i doubt whether any crowd has ever gone through such a brutal emotional deceleration. the pre-game atmosphere was nuts. nuremberg-style roaring and chanting from the brazil crowd. i remember the anthem was so crazy we were looking at each other and giggling. there was no other possible response to such screaming bug-eyed mania.

so it was the most hyped-up crowd i've ever seen. and then they had to watch a match whose most obvious historic parallel was the fall of france in 1940. i apologise to germany for the war references but that's what it was like. the other thing i was reminded of was that phenomenon of suicide by guard. david luiz running forward in the build-up to the fifth german goal was like one of those would-be defectors who would sprint towards the berlin wall and get machine-gunned. i apologise again to germany but with a match like that you have to look outside football for reference points.

and i probably have to apologise again to germany for admitting that what they see as the most beautiful half-hour of football their national team has ever played had, for me, something rather cruel about it. it's the only time watching a football match that i've ever thought, for fuck's sake, you've done enough, please stop. no need to labour the point.

but you saw the cruelty of the brazilians in the second half. the only reason most of them stayed was to abuse their players. i've never seen a crowd humiliate a player as brutally as the brazilians humiliated fred that night. they even booed his face when it appeared on the big screen several minutes after he'd been substituted. i guess fred probably has PTSD.

i remember being irritated by the irish fans in gdansk singing the fields of athenry for the last ten minutes or so, at 4-0 down. it seemed a bit smug, like, look at us we're too kind to abuse our sad sack players. well, in belo horizonte i saw a crowd do the opposite, and it turns out the irish response was more decorous.

previously the most amazing match i had attended was the liverpool final in istanbul. the way germany ripped through brazil reminded me of milan in the first half that night. they were projecting that same sense of utter mastery. i suppose the ultimate lesson of that semi-final and perhaps therefore of the whole 2014 world cup is that liverpool football club have bigger balls than brazil.

germany-argentina

i confess i wanted argentina to win but it was obvious in the end that germany deserved it. messi in form would have won it for argentina but unfortunately he played like he had a gutful of tapeworms. i was irritated that it was götze who got the winner. he'd had fuck all to do with it really. after the 7-1 the final had to be an anti-climax. i was leaving the next morning so i didn't get to go out but from my window on the 14th floor i could hear the Super Deutschland choir all night. the previous two nights i had barely seen or heard any germans at all, rio had been full of argentinians celebrating in advance.

[Slightly Brown]

Final recollections

It was alright.

[Borracho]

Final recollections

garcia wrote: i suppose the ultimate lesson of that semi-final and perhaps therefore of the whole 2014 world cup is that liverpool football club have bigger balls than brazil.

Or that Germany were a bit more professional and less cowardly than Milan.

[G-Man]

Final recollections

i was irritated that it was götze who got the winner. he'd had fuck all to do with it really.

Are you confusing his rather brilliantly taken goal in the final with his header-deflected-onto-the-knee goal against Ghana?

[garcia]

Final recollections

i mean he played badly, got dropped from the team, didn't feature as
they got to the final, then stole the glory at the end.

[N est ŕ?]

Final recollections

Bit tendentious to call scoring the world cup winning goal 'stealing the glory'.

[G-Man]

Final recollections

garcia wrote: i mean he played badly, got dropped from the team, didn't feature as
they got to the final, then stole the glory at the end.

Ah, yeah. He did score a goal which prevented Germany from losing to Ghana though, so it's not like he had nothing to do with Germany's progress to the final.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Final recollections

Another thing about 2014 that I've heard no real dissent about is that the best, and most deserving, team won. Obviously it's a bit trite to say that any World Cup winners aren't deserving to a large extent, but there have been winners in the past who probably weren't remembered as the best team in the tournament despite winning it (Italy '82, Argentina '86), and there have been some who probably were the best team but won despite some underwhelming performances (France '98, Brazil '94). There even have been some (Italy '06) who no-one really remembers how or why they won it at all.

Had Germany lost the final to Argentina, would we be talking about the Argentine side as one of the greats? Probably not. Messi, yes, but not the whole team. Several of this German side, now they have become world champions, will be remembered more fondly (as great players) as the years roll by than they are now. Klose, Muller, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, for starters.

[Wouter D]

Final recollections

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote: Had Germany lost the final to Argentina, would we be talking about the Argentine side as one of the greats? Probably not.

I'd go with "absolutely not". The main virtue of this team was that they simply didn't lose until they reached the final. That is obviously a strength rather than a weakness. However, given the offensive potential of the available players, and given the simple route Argentina had until the semi-final, I would have expected more from them than just draws and victories with a one-goal difference. If you're in one of the easiest groups in the tournament, then I would like to see a three goal margin at least once.

You can win the World Cup this way, and there is no problem with that at all. But you cannot become one of the greats this way.

[SoccerScribbler]

Final recollections

Argentina 2014 will be remembered a bit like West Germany in 1986 - a team that gave their all but who surpassed themselves in becoming runners up. They can hold their heads high. Messi in 2014 reminds me a bit of Rummenigge in 82 - the best player in the world but in no fit state to play to his top level. World Cup finals often tend to be unforgiving places for the best player in the world. Puskas in 54, Cruyff in 74, Rummenigge in 82, Baggio in 94, Ronaldo in 98, and now Messi in 14. Maradona in 90 and Zidane in 06 - though both were past their best and had previously triumphed - are arguable inclusions too.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Final recollections

SoccerScribbler, you could add Zico ('78 and '82), Maradona ('82) and Platini ('82 and '86) to that list, really, none of whom won the titles they were expected or hoped to single-handledly deliver in those years. The fact that they all coincided at Spain 1982, along with Rummenigge (who you'd mentioned) and NONE of them came home with the trophy - hell, you could chuck Kevin Keegan into that mix, really - makes that World Cup the best of all time, for me.

[danielmak]

Final recollections

I really enjoyed watching this tournament. It seemed that the a common theme during the tournament is that it was a great tournament without a great team. This was discussed a bit more during the 2nd round, since it did seem like the attacking flair started to drift away once the knock-out rounds began. But I don't think this is necessarily fair to Germany. This is a side that has been in the mix since 2008 and the bulk of the players that have made up this side have been involved in multiple CL finals since that time. They play attacking football with a solid mid-field and a top-class goalkeeper. The one knock has been the defense, which is somewhat fair. Of course, a fit Hummels and a fit Badstuber would have been a different proposition, but all sides must negotiate injuries.

I had picked Argentina to win before it began but they never really looked great. I was disappointed that France didn't try to play their game against Germany and was disappointed that Colombia were unable to play against Brazil, but I do think there were some strong sides in this tournament that if dropped into other tournaments would have held up just fine.

As far as Goetze is concerned, I didn't watch him close enough early in the tournament to see what the problem was, but he really didn't get much playing time. Lowe decided for whatever reason that Goetze wasn't making a difference and that was that, but I have no idea what informed that decision given how little Goetze played. My best guess is that Lowe didn't like what he was seeing *and* took into account how little Pep used Goetze. But Lowe also started by following Pep's lead with Lahm in the midfield and quickly realized that Pep might be smart in a lot of ways but seems to be a bit foolish when it comes to putting together a defensive unit. So, I don't think it's fair to claim that Goetze won the world cup but it's equally unfair to claim that he had a crap tournament and got lucky at the end (not that Garcia phrased it in this way). As a Dortmund fan, I can say that Goetze was amazing, but he got hurt just before the CL final against Bayern, took a long time to recover, and Pep didn't play him enough. I don't think he was match sharp and I think Lowe had other options. Goetze is young and very talented. I expect that he will show this in future tournaments when he gets more playing time.

[garcia]

Final recollections

Bit tendentious to call scoring the world cup winning goal 'stealing the glory'.

yeah, it was a nicely-taken goal and the keeper might not have been able to save it even if he hadn't jumped out of the way. but it came from a player who had barely figured in the knockout stages. dick nanninga was probably the last world cup final goalscorer to have done so little to get his team there.

he really didn't get much playing time. Lowe decided for whatever reason that Goetze wasn't making a difference and that was that, but I have no idea what informed that decision given how little Goetze played.

götze started the first two games and came on as sub in the third; it was the algeria game that did for him, when they kept running down his side. löw took him off at half time and he didn't start again. i don't think he's a natural for the position he was playing for germany - he hasn't got the physique to do a lot of defensive running. unless they start playing a man behind the striker his best chance of playing a lot of games for them might be as the striker.

[Satchmo Distel]

Final recollections

Germany 2014's long-term reputation will probably depend on whether they follow it up with another trophy, as France and Spain did. If they get exposed by a better team in 2016 or 2018, the gloss will come off a bit. If they actually get better (as did France in Euro 2000), it will enhance the glow of 2014.

Imagine how West Germany 1990's reputation would be higher had they won Euro 92 and/or USA 94.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Final recollections

Given that most of the German weltmeisters were over 28 and had about 1,000 caps between them, I think it's a bit much to ask that particular team to go on again. This was surely a career ending triumph for most?

[Wouter D]

Final recollections

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote: Given that most of the German weltmeisters were over 28 and had about 1,000 caps between them, I think it's a bit much to ask that particular team to go on again. This was surely a career ending triumph for most?

Only 7 out of the 23 squad players were 28 or older. Only 3 were over 30. I think most of them can go another round or two.

Thomas Mueller and Toni Kroos share 93 caps between them. They are both 24 years old.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Final recollections

Really? I honestly thought they were all creaking at the seams. I mean this was basically the same German team that beat England four years ago, and few of them were debutants then.

Well, on that basis, yeah, they should be overwhelming favourites for Euro 16, notwithstanding French home advantage.