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Black Face in the Stadiums

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    #51
    Black Face in the Stadiums

    António Pulisão é um gênio wrote: Blackface is very common in Belgium and the Netherlands.
    António Pulisão é um gênio wrote: It means exactly what it means. It means that it is a yearly occurrence enjoyed and accepted by 90-plus percent of the population. By definition, it is a common occurrence.
    90-plus percent of the population enjoy and accept the yearly occurrence of people fleeing en masse from a horde of wild bulls in the streets of Pamplona. According to your logic, that means that the statement "Wild bulls raging through the streets is very common in Pamplona" makes total sense.

    If you state unconditionally that something is very common somewhere, then you suggest that this happens randomly all the time, and is not only restricted to a limited time frame and particular context.

    I have no objections at all if you think the zwarte Piet phenomenon is despicable, but presenting it as if blackface is very common without any constraints is a generalization that is unfair to the people of Belgium and the Netherlands. There is a certain irony in that, with the subject being so racially (in-)sensitive.

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      #52
      Black Face in the Stadiums

      Incandinho wrote:
      I think a reason is that a lot of young people that do this go into it thinking "well, it's just a joke. I'm not trying to be mean or racist." Without any thought to the history involved, because that would be too much work. Then when people get offended their reaction is "but I wasn't trying to be offensive. If people were offended, that's their problem".

      Because when it comes down to it, and sorry if this is really horribly essentializing, and you're free to say "not all white people," but a lot of white people think they have the right to do any sort of cultural/racial appropriation they want to, including putting on costumes to dress up like another culture/race, and they shouldn't be held responsible if people think it's racist.
      Yeah, that's probably it, isn't it.

      It's the inevitable response to casting racism as a thing you shouldn't do because it offends people as opposed to a system of oppression.

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        #53
        Black Face in the Stadiums

        Orson Welles did it too, didn't he. But some time ago, admittedly.

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          #54
          Black Face in the Stadiums

          Kurt Bafokeng wrote:
          'Blackface' - regardless of intention - reduces a person's skin colour to the level of a 'mask', and reinforces it as something both amusing and temporary.
          How about Othello then?
          What about Othello? I've only seen it with a black actor in the lead role.

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            #55
            Black Face in the Stadiums

            Kurt Bafokeng wrote:
            'Blackface' - regardless of intention - reduces a person's skin colour to the level of a 'mask', and reinforces it as something both amusing and temporary.
            How about Othello then?
            othello isn't black though. he's a moor, so a suntan will do the trick.

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              #56
              Black Face in the Stadiums

              The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:
              Originally posted by Kurt Bafokeng
              'Blackface' - regardless of intention - reduces a person's skin colour to the level of a 'mask', and reinforces it as something both amusing and temporary.
              How about Othello then?
              othello isn't black though. he's a moor, so a suntan will do the trick.
              Othello's pretty clearly described as black throughout the play, both by others and by himself.

              "An black ram is tupping your white ewe".
              "begrimed and black as mine own face"

              I'd say his blackness is pretty crucial for the play to hold together. A white guy with a sun-tan wouldn't make sense.

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                #57
                Black Face in the Stadiums

                Bizarre Löw Triangle wrote:
                Originally posted by Kurt Bafokeng
                'Blackface' - regardless of intention - reduces a person's skin colour to the level of a 'mask', and reinforces it as something both amusing and temporary.
                How about Othello then?
                What about Othello? I've only seen it with a black actor in the lead role.
                The most well-known Othello is Laurence Olivier, chiefly due to the fact that the National Theatre Company's production with him in it was made into a movie in 1965 which received a lot of Oscar nominations.

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                  #58
                  Black Face in the Stadiums

                  Maybe it's my age, but I think of Laurence Fishburne first.

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                    #59
                    Black Face in the Stadiums

                    Sure, Othello was played in blackface in the past - but that's no excuse to do this now.

                    That's presupposing you live in a multi-cultural area though. In my school year of 200 children there was one black child. If he was always picked to play the black character that would have been socially awkward and isolating in itself.
                    Yes, it was a bit pre-supposing (I live in south west London), but then surely isn't the best way to play it simply 'straight up'? Find some suitable costumes, sure, but don't be blacking the kid up for Christ's sake. What the hell is that going to teach a child who lives in a predominantly white area?

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                      #60
                      Black Face in the Stadiums

                      Versalete wrote: If you state unconditionally that something is very common somewhere, then you suggest that this happens randomly all the time, and is not only restricted to a limited time frame and particular context.
                      Common doesn't imply random and all the time. In fact, random would be almost that exact opposite of common.

                      A common occurrence is something that occurs often and/or regularly. Christmas and spring are both very common occurrences in the Netherlands, as is black face.

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                        #61
                        Black Face in the Stadiums

                        Reeves & Mortimer as Marvin & Otis.

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                          #62
                          Black Face in the Stadiums

                          san2sboro wrote: Reeves & Mortimer as Marvin & Otis.
                          Also Vic doing Barry White ('they call me Mr. Huff and Puff'):

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                            #63
                            Black Face in the Stadiums

                            Also Bob doing the 'token black guy' in in the Hernia Hotline bit.

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                              #64
                              Black Face in the Stadiums

                              Incandinho wrote: PPV, if you honestly don't understand why this is offensive, don't demand that we need to explain it to you. Most everyone now understands that it's something that's incredibly racist, whether the intent is malicious or not.

                              Since you're obviously not willing to take the response that it's racist and leave it at that, then please educate yourself:

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

                              http://black-face.com/

                              http://globalgrind.com/2013/10/30/reason-why-its-not-ok-to-wear-blackface-list-photos/

                              http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/30/blackface-halloween-costumes-obviously-offensive
                              First of all. The Vietnam map. It's getting old. It was a fine invention but milking it as soon as you see the chance is on par with Da Vinci stood in front of Mona Lisa and grabbing people by their ears to have a stern look at it, then slapping her to smile some more.
                              It's a cool thing you came up with Vietnam thread, but for every time you do that schtick of posting a map of Vietnam the cool factor begins to venture pathetic. Chill with that, dude.

                              You are way out of line. Those Belgians painting their faces black. It might have been stupid, it might have been wrong, it might have been silly and it might have been offensive to some. And if it is to some it is enough in my book.
                              But what you do is call it racist. Per Automatico.
                              This is where we disagree.
                              Is this hard to comprehend?
                              If the person painting his face black didn't intend to make fun or mock, maybe even pay tribute, then call it something, whatever, but not racism.
                              Someone who does not do something with racist intent and yet stupidly manages to do something racist is not a racist. It's only when he's reminded of it then continue to do it, that's when he's racist.
                              Or are you of the belief that you can never convert someone? You thought American History X was a fairy tale?

                              "it's something that's incredibly racist, whether the intent is malicious or not"

                              To have the audacity and preach for me, from America? When you live in a country supporting Israel bombing child after child after child. Your Republicans and Democrats have vomited more evil over this world in 100 years than the Roman empire managed in a thousand. And you call me a supporter of racism? Wake the fuck up. All I've said is that you can't fucking post pictures of two persons painted black in their face and call them racists if you haven't fucking asked them why they painted their faces in the first place. Is that so hard to comprehend?

                              It's incredible. OTF has turned into shite. Everything is so black and white here.
                              Nowhere did I defend the right for people to paint their face black. Nowhere did I say it was a great idea. But it ain't a fucking brilliant idea to shout racism as soon as someone does paint his face black. Does it make you feel jolly or something? Important? IQ above Einsteins? Understand what racism truly is?

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                                #65
                                Black Face in the Stadiums

                                I don't give a fuck if someone didn't intend something to be racist. If it is, it is. And I don't give a fuck if someone is from a country who has a dubious political history, if they challenge racism from that position, then all the better.

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                                  #66
                                  Black Face in the Stadiums

                                  Do you know how it makes me feel to call out racism, PPV? Depressed. Horribly fucking depressed. That in this day and age I still have to explain and challenge actions and ideas that should be painfully obvious for anyone with a modicum of awareness and sensitivity. But I won't stop doing it, because silence is complicity. And if I'm in a room with someone blacked up as, during a party recently, someone dressed as Mr T, I'll tell them exactly what I think of them. Because fuck their motives. This isn't about them.

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                                    #67
                                    Black Face in the Stadiums

                                    George Burnage Shaw wrote: I don't give a fuck if someone didn't intend something to be racist. If it is, it is.
                                    Yes and no. But there are obvious shades of racism which require different responses, from legal action to corrective conversation. Intent -- and response to initial the reaction to an act of racism -- surely informs how to interpret and classify acts of racism.

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                                      #68
                                      Black Face in the Stadiums

                                      All I've said is that you can't fucking post pictures of two persons painted black in their face and call them racists if you haven't fucking asked them why they painted their faces in the first place. Is that so hard to comprehend?
                                      Jesus f***ing wept. How transparent does this have to be? Nobody on this planet has a responsibility to go about asking f*ckwits why they've painted their faces black. It doesn't matter how many layers of 'get out' you allow these people, that act in itself is demeaning. Simple as. How many times, for Christ's sake?

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                                        #69
                                        Black Face in the Stadiums

                                        Ppv let it go. The intent of the people dressing up in blackface is not important. It's how the people that they are dressing up as feel about it that is what matters. It doesn't matter if they are proclaiming their love for axel Witsel, they should find a way of expressing this support that isn't also a very old and widely understood racist trope.

                                        Particularly when you're from a country where they kept Congolese people in a human zoo at a world fair in the 30's and you could buy human hand ashtrays

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                                          #70
                                          Black Face in the Stadiums

                                          Moreover:

                                          1) Brazil imported 5 million slaves, 10 times more than the US, so racial insensitivity is perhaps an even worse affront there than the US

                                          2) Belgium committed a genocide in the Congo.

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                                            #71
                                            Black Face in the Stadiums

                                            On a side note:
                                            German TV had a piece on those two German fans that were shown on the internet as evidence of German blackfacing racism. Turns out they're been running and driving around Brazil the past four weeks with their entire upper body painted as a German flag. Therefore their heads and necks were black, their breast and upper back red and their bellies and lower backs yellow.

                                            In the report they seemed quite nice and were seen taking souvenir photo shots with Brazilians of all possible races.

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                                              #72
                                              Black Face in the Stadiums

                                              On another side note:
                                              Does anybody know whether the Brazilian and/or Belgian public and media have picked the incident up? Maybe that's more relevant.

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                                                #73
                                                Black Face in the Stadiums

                                                Kurt Bafokeng wrote: Therefore their heads and necks were black, their breast and upper back red and their bellies and lower backs yellow.
                                                Thus offering offence to Native Americans and East Asians to boot. Efficient these Germans, what.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Black Face in the Stadiums

                                                  Pietro Paolo Virdis wrote:
                                                  To have the audacity and preach for me, from America? When you live in a country supporting Israel bombing child after child after child. Your Republicans and Democrats have vomited more evil over this world in 100 years than the Roman empire managed in a thousand. And you call me a supporter of racism?
                                                  Please let me know where I said that.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Black Face in the Stadiums

                                                    www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/netherlands-europe-news

                                                    Zwarte Piet to be phased out.

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