Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

[Stumpy Pepys]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

dryroasted wrote: It is more about ending Westminster's influence than anything else. The fact that they want to keep many of the British things that are already there is very telling.

Thing is though, they're going to have their monetary policy controlled by a 'foreign' central bank, which is also going to make fiscal demands on them.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

The elephant in the room is of course Cameron's refusal to come to Scotland to debate what is the greatest challenge to the Union since 1707.

It bears repeating. Cameron could be the very last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in its present form, a Union that has lasted for hundreds of years and yet will not debate the issue in person with his direct challenger in Scotland.

The fact that he won't, and is reliant upon already existing skepticism and the better together campaign speaks volumes and ironically strengthens the yes campaign- the British Prime Minister is scared/can’t be arsed/is so full of Eton arrogance (delete or not where applicable) that he won’t go North of the border to save the Union.

Yes, he knows he is a liability in Scotland but the office of PM of the UK should transcend this and he should show the people of Scotland that he cares enough to actually go to Edinburgh. Instead he makes a moving speech in a Velodrome. In London. With all the passion of (as Aneurin Bevan once said of the ideal Labour leader) a desiccated calculating machine.

The leader of the UK will not debate the possible independence of a constituent member in that country. Regardless of the outcome (which will be no), it is an absolute dereliction of his office.

[Duncan Gardner]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: in 1979 when we entered the EMS together. We effectively had a common currency because english people had huge holdings in ireland and vice versa, and we've historically provided a huge proportion of your food. We also shared a common border.

That effectiveness only stretched as far as completely different banknotes (one set of which barely recognised and thus spendable or even convertible outside the Republic), and relative costs of living about 20% apart.

[Duncan Gardner]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

BBC Scotland did a documentary last week, inluding a poll on people's main concerns, as follows

13 Connolly, Connery etc. to get naturalised in Malibu
14 Curling teams to be state funded before referendum

17 Celtgers, Rangtic fast-tracking into English CL
45 Rod Stewart rationed to one gig annually north of Carlisle

10 Broadcasting
9 Europe
8 Defence
7 Energy
6 Immigration
5 Currency
4 British Affairs
3 Welfare
2 Pensions
1 Economy

[dalliance]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

There's no black and white answers which the unionists and EU are demanding and whilst I agree that the SNP could do more to explain certain aspects, the accusation that they are clueless and leading the country into potential ruin is again bluff, bullying and bluster.

We are a handful of months away from the referendum and we have a situation where the party driving the independence issue cannot tell the people of Scotland incredibly basic but incredibly important things like what currency they will use and what their broader EU status might be?

And when others step into the information void to at least give a reasoned argument in one direction they are just dismissed as bullies because they carry a message the SNP don't like. And yet the SNP cannot give a proper counter-argument.

I mean for a party who after all stand for little else but this single issue, shouldn't this stuff have been worked out years ago so there was a major referendum? Basically the SNP never thought they would win an outright majority in the Scottish parliament that would trigger an electoral promise they had probably just about forgotten about themselves.

So ever since it's been playing catch up trying to work out all the complicated shit that comes with splitting countries. Their motto for the whole campaign really should be 'a wing and a prayer' because beyond blind patriotism there's nothing but dishonesty behind their campaign.

But why would a currency union with an independent scotland pose a risk to the rest of the uk. they're much smaller than you and less likely to do anything strange, or insane.

Scotland's bank exposure amounts to 12.5 times the size of the country's economy, when set against a 5 times exposure for the UK as a whole. That's a way bigger exposure than Ireland or Iceland ever had.

[Duncan Gardner]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Bryaniek wrote: I just want Scotland to become independent so that the Unionists in NI will pledge allegiance the the country that used to rule the country they used to live in

Goed moergen Mynheer.

Look, much as I enjoy an outing in Utrecht or vacation in Venlo, no-one actually wants to live 20 metres under the sea in Willem Tweeland...

[Duncan Gardner]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Dalliance wrote: So ever since it's been playing catch up trying to work out all the complicated shit that comes with splitting countries

There are recent encouraging parallels though- Slovakia?

[anton pulisov]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

dalliance wrote: Scotland's bank exposure amounts to 12.5 times the size of the country's economy, when set against a 5 times exposure for the UK as a whole. That's a way bigger exposure than Ireland or Iceland ever had.

But that exposure is in Sterling, so nothing really changes.

In fact, the best thing an independent Scotland could do would be to start their own currency and let RBS & co fuck off to Canary Wharf.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

dalliance wrote:

We are a handful of months away from the referendum and we have a situation where the party driving the independence issue cannot tell the people of Scotland incredibly basic but incredibly important things like what currency they will use and what their broader EU status might be?

I thought the SNP had been consistent on this issue for some time. They want to continue to use the pound sterling as they see it as much Scotland’s right to issue sterling as the rest of the UK, Scotland having done so since the conversion of pound scots to sterling in 1707. Whether you agree with this position or not is of course another matter entirely.

We are a handful of months away from the referendum and we have a situation where Westminster and the EU are being more than disingenuous about their policies in the event of independence.

Osborne’s speech with its threat of no currency union did not explain exactly what this would entail in the immediate aftermath of a yes vote. There is absolutely no way that the shutters will go up on currency union on independence day +1 which Osborne’s speech with its veiled threats seemed to imply. If Westminster is absolutely dead set against currency union, there will be a reasonable and workable agreement implemented on the time and date set for an independent Scottish currency. To do anything less than this would be breathtakingly irresponsible. Scotland’s import and exports with the rest of the UK are considerable, an instant ejection of Scotland from sterling would not only see economic chaos in rUK and Scotland but the confidence in sterling could plummet in the money markets.

In the event of independence Westminster will either a. enter into a currency union with Scotland or b. reject a currency union but negotiate the appropriate time for Scotland to issue its own currency. The EU will also enter into the appropriate negotiations with Edinburgh. Scotland will not be thrown out overnight. If Osborne and Barroso admitted as, then the political debate would be better served, but they won’t. Year zero hyperbole is much the better for scaring the floating voters.

The SNP response with its threat of not accepting its share of the national debt in the event of a Scots currency shows there is brinksmanship being played by both sides.

But let’s not forget the contemptuous way the Tories have dealt with the Scotland debate. As already mentioned, Cameron’s conduct has been abject and then we had Osborne fly up, give his imperious speech and then fly back to London again. Neither the Prime Minister nor the Chancellor of the Exchequer has debated in a public forum the fundamental issues with anyone from the independence camp. If Scots want to know their real measure of worth in the Union, Cameron, Osborne and Westminster have made that abundantly clear in the last few weeks.

[Slightly Brown]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

As for the EU proposal, it's doubtful - although not impossible - that any nation would block Scotland's entry. The trouble is, Salmond has said the this whole process will be pain free, taking a mere 18 months.

There are 35 accession chapters to be negotiated with each of the 28 EU states. Iceland applied for membership in 2009, dropping out after three rounds of negotiations. Turkey has experienced similar difficulties. Plus, Serbia is ahead of Scotland in the queue (if it works like that).

I dunno if Scotland will get an easier ride. Spain might chose to make negotiations as difficult and protracted as possible (or rUK, for that matter), that way it can send a message to Catalonia without having the political fall-out of a veto. Who knows.

But the idea that all this will be “painless” seems implausible to me, especially given the way Brussels tends to work.

This, though, sums Salmond up. He hasn't even acknowledged that there might be hurdles on the road to independence, and that includes his claim over the currency union. It's disingenuous at the very least.

[anton pulisov]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Most of the big chain high street companies operating in Scotland are British companies based in England. You can be sure that they will make sure that free-trade agreements will be put in place asap. I'm sure the head of Tesco will have a word in David Cameron's ear to keep Scotland in Sterling.

As for joining the EU... what is the rush? They could join the EEA, as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have, which would allow Scottish citizens in EU countries to have residency rights. Furthermore, those Scottish citizens in the EU could choose to have dual British-Scottish citizenship, thus solving any residency problems at the stroke of a pen. Norway has a lot of oil and isn't a member of the EU. They are doing alright. Why should Scotland rush to become a full member of the EU?

[dryroasted]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote: The elephant in the room is of course Cameron's refusal to come to Scotland to debate what is the greatest challenge to the Union since 1707.

It bears repeating. Cameron could be the very last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in its present form, a Union that has lasted for hundreds of years and yet will not debate the issue in person with his direct challenger in Scotland.

The fact that he won't, and is reliant upon already existing skepticism and the better together campaign speaks volumes and ironically strengthens the yes campaign- the British Prime Minister is scared/can’t be arsed/is so full of Eton arrogance (delete or not where applicable) that he won’t go North of the border to save the Union.

Yes, he knows he is a liability in Scotland but the office of PM of the UK should transcend this and he should show the people of Scotland that he cares enough to actually go to Edinburgh. Instead he makes a moving speech in a Velodrome. In London. With all the passion of (as Aneurin Bevan once said of the ideal Labour leader) a desiccated calculating machine.

The leader of the UK will not debate the possible independence of a constituent member in that country. Regardless of the outcome (which will be no), it is an absolute dereliction of his office.

This referendum will affect about 60 million people directly. Yet only a tenth of that have a vote.

If people outside Scotland should be in a formal debate on this they should have a vote too. It was PM Brown v Salmond then fair enough.

As has been said elsewhere, if any politician non Scottish makes any sort of counter point it's dismissed by the SNP as bullying.

[anton pulisov]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

dryroasted wrote:

The elephant in the room is of course Cameron's refusal to come to Scotland to debate what is the greatest challenge to the Union since 1707.

It bears repeating. Cameron could be the very last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in its present form, a Union that has lasted for hundreds of years and yet will not debate the issue in person with his direct challenger in Scotland.

The fact that he won't, and is reliant upon already existing skepticism and the better together campaign speaks volumes and ironically strengthens the yes campaign- the British Prime Minister is scared/can’t be arsed/is so full of Eton arrogance (delete or not where applicable) that he won’t go North of the border to save the Union.

Yes, he knows he is a liability in Scotland but the office of PM of the UK should transcend this and he should show the people of Scotland that he cares enough to actually go to Edinburgh. Instead he makes a moving speech in a Velodrome. In London. With all the passion of (as Aneurin Bevan once said of the ideal Labour leader) a desiccated calculating machine.

The leader of the UK will not debate the possible independence of a constituent member in that country. Regardless of the outcome (which will be no), it is an absolute dereliction of his office.

This referendum will affect about 60 million people directly. Yet only a tenth of that have a vote.

Well, by that logic, we should all be allowed to vote in the US Presidential elections.

[blameless]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Several of the Scots on this very thread think Scotland is better off in the UK and yet can see that Cameron, Osborne and Barroso's behaviour has been both contemptuous and contemptible.

All Scots are tired of being spoken down to in this manner, not just Alex Fucking Salmond.

[dryroasted]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Bryaniek wrote:

The elephant in the room is of course Cameron's refusal to come to Scotland to debate what is the greatest challenge to the Union since 1707.

It bears repeating. Cameron could be the very last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in its present form, a Union that has lasted for hundreds of years and yet will not debate the issue in person with his direct challenger in Scotland.

The fact that he won't, and is reliant upon already existing skepticism and the better together campaign speaks volumes and ironically strengthens the yes campaign- the British Prime Minister is scared/can’t be arsed/is so full of Eton arrogance (delete or not where applicable) that he won’t go North of the border to save the Union.

Yes, he knows he is a liability in Scotland but the office of PM of the UK should transcend this and he should show the people of Scotland that he cares enough to actually go to Edinburgh. Instead he makes a moving speech in a Velodrome. In London. With all the passion of (as Aneurin Bevan once said of the ideal Labour leader) a desiccated calculating machine.

The leader of the UK will not debate the possible independence of a constituent member in that country. Regardless of the outcome (which will be no), it is an absolute dereliction of his office.

This referendum will affect about 60 million people directly. Yet only a tenth of that have a vote.

Well, by that logic, we should all be allowed to vote in the US Presidential elections.

true. but why should somebody who has no vote in a referendum be seen as the figurehead for one of the choices, as the SNP want?

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Because he is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of which Scotland is a constituent part.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

blameless wrote: Several of the Scots on this very thread think Scotland is better off in the UK and yet can see that Cameron, Osborne and Barroso's behaviour has been both contemptuous and contemptible.

All Scots are tired of being spoken down to in this manner, not just Alex Fucking Salmond.

Precisely.

[Slightly Brown]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Bryaniek wrote:

As for joining the EU... what is the rush? They could join the EEA, as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have, which would allow Scottish citizens in EU countries to have residency rights. Furthermore, those Scottish citizens in the EU could choose to have dual British-Scottish citizenship, thus solving any residency problems at the stroke of a pen. Norway has a lot of oil and isn't a member of the EU. They are doing alright. Why should Scotland rush to become a full member of the EU?

But Salmond has stated that his intention is for Scotland to join the EU within 18 months. I'm not setting the timeline, nor am I even suggesting we should join; I merely pointing out Salmond's position and why it might not be as smooth sailing as he thinks. I've read conflicting views on the euro opt-out, for example.

Also, I'm assuming each round of negotiations will depend on the prevailing domestic situation in each member state. Who knows what the political landscape will be in a year's time.

Also, these factors - and the currency union* (assuming a Yes vote and that all three main parties back down and talks happen) - all rest on Alex Salmond's prowess around the negotiating table. That's a lot of confidence in him and his party.

*Which I'm not sure is a great idea anyway.

[Slightly Brown]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

To Blameless:

I'll second that. People are tired of it, that's why the message has to be better. More robust. On both sides.

[David Agnew]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Bryaniek wrote: Most of the big chain high street companies operating in Scotland are British companies based in England. You can be sure that they will make sure that free-trade agreements will be put in place asap. I'm sure the head of Tesco will have a word in David Cameron's ear to keep Scotland in Sterling.

As for joining the EU... what is the rush? They could join the EEA, as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have, which would allow Scottish citizens in EU countries to have residency rights. Furthermore, those Scottish citizens in the EU could choose to have dual British-Scottish citizenship, thus solving any residency problems at the stroke of a pen. Norway has a lot of oil and isn't a member of the EU. They are doing alright. Why should Scotland rush to become a full member of the EU?

Because the EEA has all of the trading agreements of the EU, but with little of the social policy, or workers rights.

[Reed John]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

Why would an independent Scotland not want to join the EU? Who would regulate the medical devices, for example? (To name just one of a zillion issues that come to mind.)

What are the sporting implications?

[anton pulisov]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

David Agnew wrote:

Most of the big chain high street companies operating in Scotland are British companies based in England. You can be sure that they will make sure that free-trade agreements will be put in place asap. I'm sure the head of Tesco will have a word in David Cameron's ear to keep Scotland in Sterling.

As for joining the EU... what is the rush? They could join the EEA, as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland have, which would allow Scottish citizens in EU countries to have residency rights. Furthermore, those Scottish citizens in the EU could choose to have dual British-Scottish citizenship, thus solving any residency problems at the stroke of a pen. Norway has a lot of oil and isn't a member of the EU. They are doing alright. Why should Scotland rush to become a full member of the EU?

Because the EEA has all of the trading agreements of the EU, but with little of the social policy, or workers rights.

That's kind of what I am implying. Scotland, like Norway, is a oil-rich country that is to the left of the European Parliament. I don't see the benefit of the EU over the EEA for an independent Scotland.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

It'll get forced to do what the EU wants anyway, like Switzerland with banking regulation.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

blameless wrote: Several of the Scots on this very thread think Scotland is better off in the UK and yet can see that Cameron, Osborne and Barroso's behaviour has been both contemptuous and contemptible.

All Scots are tired of being spoken down to in this manner, not just Alex Fucking Salmond.

Barrosso represents the EU, or more specifically the Council of Ministers whose approval Scotland needs.

It's useful for those ministers to give him the nasty stuff to say on their behalf.

Sure, this is a murky way of operating but you can't really write him off as some irrelevant bully, as the SNP are trying to.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Scottish independence campaign gets fillip

dryroasted wrote:

The elephant in the room is of course Cameron's refusal to come to Scotland to debate what is the greatest challenge to the Union since 1707.

It bears repeating. Cameron could be the very last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in its present form, a Union that has lasted for hundreds of years and yet will not debate the issue in person with his direct challenger in Scotland.

The fact that he won't, and is reliant upon already existing skepticism and the better together campaign speaks volumes and ironically strengthens the yes campaign- the British Prime Minister is scared/can’t be arsed/is so full of Eton arrogance (delete or not where applicable) that he won’t go North of the border to save the Union.

Yes, he knows he is a liability in Scotland but the office of PM of the UK should transcend this and he should show the people of Scotland that he cares enough to actually go to Edinburgh. Instead he makes a moving speech in a Velodrome. In London. With all the passion of (as Aneurin Bevan once said of the ideal Labour leader) a desiccated calculating machine.

The leader of the UK will not debate the possible independence of a constituent member in that country. Regardless of the outcome (which will be no), it is an absolute dereliction of his office.

This referendum will affect about 60 million people directly. Yet only a tenth of that have a vote.

If people outside Scotland should be in a formal debate on this they should have a vote too. It was PM Brown v Salmond then fair enough.

As has been said elsewhere, if any politician non Scottish makes any sort of counter point it's dismissed by the SNP as bullying.

I can see what you're getting at there.

People who hold referendums on leaving something tend to only want the one referendum. Scotland leaving the UK, or the UK leaving the EU, would be followed by a load of negotiations and a new relationship emerging.

To me, the first referendum implies a second referendum on the new relationship, on both sides.

I think there'd be a case for holding one in the rump of the UK on the new settlement. And pan-UK politicians are surely entitled in the meantime to talk about what kind of relationship they'd want or accept.